|
Post by quincannon on Sept 21, 2011 13:20:51 GMT -6
Richard: I thank you, but I am not put off by piss ants, and legends in their own minds. From this moment on no quarter will be offered, no quarter accepted.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 21, 2011 15:11:28 GMT -6
Wow. Just been threatened by a guy with a cat. Again, even. Will the terror never cease? That'll keep me awake. Threatened to cut me. In writing. Smart.
I hardly feel the need to threaten anyone myself. Nor do I have the energy, nor such limited horizons that a Custer message board could upset me to that level.
Meanwhile, yantaylor, rather than find dubious solace behind quincannon, and partnership with wild (watch your back; he's posted really expressive things about the English, get him to point them out to you.....), why not take the less energy draining course and my advice: take the time to write coherent posts. Why is that so burdensome?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 21, 2011 15:59:39 GMT -6
DC: It does bring back those fond memories of stale bread bologna sandwiches at the taxpayers expense doesn't it. Remember your rules, can't take back what you say. Tell me what did they throw you in the House of Do Right for, stealing lollypops from little boys, or swindling cookies from girls scouts? Just remember crap for brains you set the rules, and I am more than willing to play by them.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 21, 2011 17:13:14 GMT -6
and partnership with wild (watch your back; he's posted really expressive things about the English, get him to point them out to you.....), I'v taken part in many debates both on this site and others.Debates ranging from the LBH,to politics,to military matters to ancient history. I have debated honestly and stand over everything I have posted.They are still up there as DC continually points out and will remain up. That he implies they are dishonest off thread in a totally different debate just goes to show what a sliveen he is.If that term is not understood your side of the pond sh1te stirrer is close enough to it.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 21, 2011 17:22:50 GMT -6
Richard: Don't bother the Lout at the moment, he is busy trying to figure out how he will again play the victim.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 21, 2011 17:24:52 GMT -6
Quincannon, you're being silly. Go on if you want, it doesn't bother me, but you'll never recover the regard you lose if you continue in this vein, and that's forever.
I, of course, have no regard to lose, but you're neither funny, nor scary, nor compelling in logic, nor in any way effective in trying to intimidate. You've ceased being a font of info and an officer and become just an olde man screeching at the squirrels and pissants.
I've been to jail. Do you really, really think that sort of stuff intimidates adults? Are you at all familiar with what is said in polite conversations between the young today?
And this atop the fact that your position is just wrong and mine is correct. yantaylor's own posts and admissions condemn him. You've nothing to defend. He can't at present contribute unless he takes the time to think, write, and learn. That isn't bullying. I'm one of the few that takes the time to address him at all. It's not requiring a master class in language to request some basic, elementary school level skills be exhibited. He can do it when he pays attention. It's not a learning disorder. He's not stupid. He's lazy and sloppy.
For the record, calling someone a pissant and then spending time arguing means the word was misapplied or you don't know the meaning. It means insignificant. If insignificant, why reply and argue?
|
|
|
Post by El Crab on Sept 21, 2011 17:28:12 GMT -6
Ian, There was only one "set" of men running toward-- not for, but toward-- Deep Ravine: E Company. I have posted this before, but it seems apt to put it again, as well. I have not seen a better or newer listing anywhere. For my two-cents or gold guinea, you can take it to the bank: Douglas Scott-- the archaeologist-- claimed Custer, five officers, and perhaps forty enlisted personnel lay on Custer/Last Stand Hill. These are the ones identified. • 28 names are documented: 14 privates Ygnatz Stungewitz (C) Willis B. Wright (C) Anton Dohman (F) Gustav Klein (F) William H. Lerock (F) Werner L. Liemann (F) Edward C. Driscoll (I) Archibald McIlhargey (I) John E. Mitchell (I) John Parker (I) Francis T. Hughes (L) Charles McCarthy (L) Oscar F. Pardee (L) Thomas S. Tweed (L) • Two civilians Boston Custer (QM) Autie Reed • One surgeon: Dr. George Lord (HQ) • One trumpeter: Henry Voss (HQ) • Four NCOs SGM William Sharrow (HQ) 1SG Michael Kenney (F) SGT John H. Groesbeck (F) CPL William Teeman (F) • SGT Robert Hughes’ (K) body was most likely the one found at the head of Deep Ravine, though there is a remote chance he was killed on Custer Hill. Supposedly identified by CPT McDougall. • Six officers: GAC (HQ) William Cooke (HQ) Tom Custer (C – HQ) Algernon Smith (E) George Yates (F) William Van W. Reily (F) • Presently, 52 markers are located on Custer Hill; 42 bodies had been buried there initially. • Deep Ravine (8 men from Company E): 1SG Frederick Hohmeyer SGT John S. Ogden CPL George C. Brown CPL Albert H. Meyer PVT Richard Farrell PVT William Huber PVT Andy Knecht PVT William H. Rees I know there is some confusion and controversy regarding Lord and Voss, but I have no credible evidence refuting Scott's claim. Bruce Liddic presented his own description of where bodies were found. Grouped near Custer around the top of the knoll: LT Cooke (HQ) PVT Driscoll (I) PVT Parker (I) LT Smith (E) SGT John Vickory – Groesbeck (F) TMP Voss (HQ) PVT McCarthy (L) • Deep Ravine: SGT Hughes (K) PVT Tim Donnelly (F) PVT Andrew Knecht (E) • On a rise above Deep Ravine: CPL John Briody (F) • Farthest north on the battlefield, opposite the present parking lot on the east side of the service entrance road: SGM Sharrow (HQ). • Lower west side, down the slope from the monument, about one hundred yards from George Custer: Boston Custer Autie Reed • About 20 feet southeast of GAC, on a hillside: Dr. Lord (HQ) It seems to me the only discrepancies between the two are with Liddic's PVT Tim Donnelly and CPL John Briody, and I would accept Liddic's view on this because according to the narratives of several Indians who were there, a small group of horsemen-- I guess there were some remaining-- broke from LSH at the very end and were cut down near the headcut of Deep Ravine. This would account for Hughes, Briody, and Donnelly. There is also some talk about one or two men-- possibly as many as four-- who tried to make a getaway. These are generally thought to be 1SG Butler (L) and CPL Foley (C). I would suspect they died earlier in the fighting rather than later because of their units. If I remember correctly, Richard Fox said in all likelihood they came from the Keogh Sector and were cut down before Benteen would have arrived on Weir Peaks. I make the case that Tom Weir reached the northernmost peak at 3:51 PM and I also claim that the most intense fighting on Calhoun Hill and in the Keogh Sector occurred from 3:53 to 4:25 PM. Since Edgerly would not have reached the loaf area and consolidated his troops until about 4:14 PM, I would venture to say Butler and Foley made their run some time between 4 PM and 4:15. Foley was probably killed first, while it may have taken a few minutes longer to kill Butler, but both men would have reached their gravesites in very short order, no more than a couple of minutes. Another thing to consider is the fact that there was an enormous amount of dust and smoke and I doubt seriously if anyone could peer into that imbroglio and come out with a cogent tale of what was occurring. Tom Weir lived only about 5 1/2 months after the battle, but claimed he had a tale to tell. I suspect part of that may have been the sighting of Foley and Butler. Not a single solitary sole ever said a word about it, not officer, not EM. This being the case, it is clear to me, no one saw it... except maybe Weir. We all speculate that Tom Weir had this smoking gun he brought to his grave. I just wonder if it wasn't merely his own guilt in not telling what he saw and did nothing about. Combat is funny; you sometimes take blame for events you could not control or do anything about, almost as though you blame yourself for living when others have died. I sometimes wonder if it wasn't just such thoughts that haunted Fred Benteen for the rest of his life. Best wishes, Fred. It is mentioned in Hammer's Custer in '76, in the footnotes, that Flanagan may have seen Foley riding toward them and then shoot himself. I believe its in the Stanislas Roy portion of the book. I asked Fox about it, since it was rather cryptic. It doesn't point to a specific account, just something about Flanagan and Foley. I'd be curious to think what you know about this, Fred. So did Sharrow possibly flee Last Stand Hill to the North? About how far would you say his body would've been from the top of the hill?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 21, 2011 17:43:10 GMT -6
DC: Is it silly to expect that folks be treated with respect? No, I don't think so. It is called common courtesy. Those that know me, understand the fact that I never have, will not, or never will tolerate a bully, in any form, be it in the back alleys of DC where I grew up, or in cyberspace.
It is not my intention to be funny, or scary, nor do I wish to change your mind. My only wish is that you would keep your thoughts about people you do not care for, for some reason, to yourself, and at least make the effort to treat them with kindness and respect.
I don't give a damn about Ian's use of the English language. He deserves the same rights as others here without your constant intervention as the language, punctuation, grammar, and editorial police. Who gave you that right? Who elevated you to that lofty position? Who made you the arbiter of all that is correct?
Yes, I am an old man, an officer by training and commission, and a gentleman by Act of Congress. But let me tell you something Sunshine, Congress sometimes makes mistakes and fails to smooth over all the rough edges of youth. If you wish to continue down this path you will find all the places they missed. Now if you want to let this die, I have no objection, it will die.
|
|
|
Post by zekesgirl on Sept 21, 2011 18:45:42 GMT -6
OK you two. Either one of you could stop the bickering by saying enough. No winner, no loser, just stop it.
I know you're both big enough men to do that.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 21, 2011 19:12:18 GMT -6
ZG: With all due respect, it is not about winning and loosing. It is about right and wrong. I have won some and lost some. Were it about that it would not have progressed this far. This is a fundamental question of how we treat each other. Nothing more. Nothing less. It stops when conduct changes and not one second before. It can stop now, and I hope it does.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 22, 2011 3:44:15 GMT -6
To darkcloud, I will say one thing before this argument stops, because it is doing no one any good. I know I made a mistake with the post over Deep Ravine, I have accepted that, but you have to admit, it does look like you have been on a witch hunt here, and I was the person being hunted (it proved that by the comment over Strange), but I know that when I post something on this board you are going to see it, and I also know you are watching my posts on the other board, if I see you name by any posts I have been on, I know you are there just to take a shot, but I know I can’t stop you doing this, that’s up to you, you mentioned about Chuck and said:
‘’you just look for keywords and assume’’.
But the post we are talking about (Deep Ravine), everyone who read that post must of seen my mistake and choose to ignore it, because it was no big deal, they just looked at the question I was asking, the question was did E Company get forced into DR by the Suicide Boys and other Warriors, and was it later that the remains of Custer’s command run down there later to join them or make a break for safety, that was the whole topic of the post right there, but all you wanted to do was take a stick and beat me, you could have said, like Fred and others did, Ian I think what happened here was this, and if you wanted to point out that Stands in Timber was not at the battle and I had made a mistake here, you could have said, hey look you are wrong over Stands in Timber, he was not there, and I would have learned by this , and I would have put up an apology to the others about my mistake, easy that’s all it would have taken.
Now I know you have an aggressive stance with people over the BLBH, I bet there is a list of people stretching out like the markers running down from LSH to DR who you have either bullied or forced off this site, but I am not going to be one of them.
You also may have no patience we people like me, who are not up to your intelligence on this battle, but I used to be a Guitarist in various bands through the 1970/80s we only played working men’s clubs around the northwest, but when I stopped playing, I started teaching, I used to teach Guitar to Friends Children and other Teenagers who were starting off, some of them used to drive me mad, some you could see that they could never play as long had a hole in there behind, but I never lost my temper, never even give up on them, some even ended up better than me, which I am proud off (I see some of them playing even now) so think about this the next time someone makes a mistake here darkcloud.
You know when I first started serving bar in my Dads Pub in the early 1970s, he said to me, Ian there three things you don’t discuss at the bar because it usually ends up with trouble: 1. Politics 2. Religion 3. Sport Well if My Dad was still here now, I would say, Dad there is four, the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Ian.
|
|
|
Post by shan on Sept 22, 2011 7:03:36 GMT -6
Ian,
Firstly good post under the circumstances, and I say that as a someone who previously asked you to settle down and read some books and maybe attend more to the posts of others with a greater knowledge before you go scatter gunning questions all over the place. I still hold to that, but I feel a little humbled by what you had to say and I apologise if I caused any offense.
I suppose some of the exasperation arises because many of us have been over this stuff for several years now, { just look how long the various 'Did Benteen dawdle' issues have been kicked around on both boards for what seems for ever,} threads that often drag on and on because some people have a desperate need to tie their theories to the proverbial flag pole and then refuse to give way no matter what the evidence to the contrary.
Darkcloud may well be one of the original posters on these boards so he has seen more of it than most of us, but that doesn't excuse personal attacks; attacks which have, as we all know to our cost, have driven some off very knowledgeable people, people whose sideways on viewpoints may have help illuminate things the rest of us hadn't seen. Why he gets so heated about these things is beyond me, if something annoys you, then just scroll on down and find something else that interests you, no need to hasten a heart attack. That said, we've never had a spat, and I have to say I've always agreed with his " much messier, and over much quicker view of the battle' than that of the romantics on these boards who have a need for a more pro-longed, more glorious battle. I also agree with him that we need to mentally pick up and scatter all those markers a bit more than the distribution we see today, especially those on last stand hill which contribute to that last stand illusion.
With regards to Deep ravine, there are enough Indian accounts; albeit with their attendant difficulties, to indicate that E companies move down to Deep ravine came from off LSH, and that it occurred shortly before the end of the battle. Prior to that it may well be that E company was ordered to move up towards LSH in order to drive off the hostiles who were firing down on the Cemetery ridge location from the ridge. There is some evidence that they dismounted in order to do this, and that fortuitously, the so called Suicide boys happened one companies horses as they came from the museum area, and imagining that whatever the native Americans equivalent of Xmas was, thought it had come early and promptly drove them off. I say that because it's worth remembering that acquiring horses was very strongly embedded in the warriors psyche, and that they were often torn between trying to kill the enemy and grabbing any spare horses that happened to be around.
Lastly, one would hope we are all adults on these boards, so why not quit acting like kids in the playground and put this little outbreak of posturing to bed, so that we can get on with what really interests us, which is trying to untangle just what happened up on that hill.
Shan
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 22, 2011 7:21:05 GMT -6
Hi Shan, and thanks for the reply, I have two books up to now out of the ones recommended by you guy's. March of the Montana Column (bought this last week) Where Custer fell (got this via the Library) To the Edge of Darkness (to expensive) The Custer Myth (on my list to get) Little Big Horn Diary (to expensive) Archeology and Custer's last Battle (I really want this one and its on my list to get also) So I am trying to get up to speed here, and going back to the skirmish that is happening at the moment, I hope it dose get sorted out, sooner rather then later. Regards Ian.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 22, 2011 7:53:08 GMT -6
You don't know what a witch hunt is, either, yantaylor, because it certainly does not apply here. Things that are generally held as bad are not, therefore, interchangeable.
Your posts were both incorrect and deceptive - saying things were quotes which were not - and difficult to read because they were sloppy and illiterate. Where is that remotely acceptable, yantaylor? Where are those qualities admired or tolerated?
I'll have no trouble reading my posts again, or knowing others are, over the years. You and quincannon will be embarrassed. QC already is, and took some of his stuff down, not because they were effective in any sense but because he made a ridiculous ass out of himself. He may remove more.
Anyone who actually read my replies would know you were handled gently, given the material to work with.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 22, 2011 8:13:30 GMT -6
DC: And you will wait until hell freezes over.
You have had several chances to make peace including Ian's effort of this morning. You choose war instead. Well war it will be, and I don't quit.
|
|