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Post by fred on Nov 26, 2011 6:38:06 GMT -6
I can understand now why you think Marm and Savage deserve medals. I agree.
The most heroic civilian act I have ever seen was caught on film. Anyone remember when that flight out of Washington, D. C.'s National Airport struck the 14th Street Bridge? I don't know how many people were killed, but there were those who didn't die in the crash. It was in the dead of winter and the Potomac was full of ice. A woman was struggling to stay afloat... she was near the bridge and in the middle of the river. Some male bystander who had witnessed the whole debacle, stripped off his outer clothing, jumped in the ice-filled river, swam out there, and brought the woman back to shore. Both survived.
Personally, I have braved some bullets to save my troops, but my courage would have eluded me on the shores of the Potomac that day. That guy was a hero!
Is there room on that soapbox for me, Britt?
As for "Occupy Wall Street"... it has gotten a little out of hand. The initial concept was valid and had a good point, a point even a Wall Streeter like me understood and agreed with. As soon as the fringe groups get involved, however, a lot of the movement's legitimacy dissipates. What the hell are the unions bellyaching about? What, $125,000-a-year cops don't make enough? $100,000-a-year train conductors and toll booth collectors don't make enough? $75,000-a-year town water-meter readers don't make enough? Are states and cities to raise taxes on the private sector just so there won't be lay-offs in the public sector? And $75-an-hour assembly-line workers are underpaid?
Then there are the poor struggling artists. You know, the ones who drape a tree in muslin and call it art; the clowns who weld together smashed auto parts and call that sculpture. Those are the ones from "Occupy Wall Street" who marched on the NYC museums because they consider MOMA a "palace of cultural elitism." The only thing stopping me from buying smashed auto parts is the stupidity of wasting money. Art my ass!
Best wishes, Fred.
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jag
Full Member
Caption: IRAQI PHOTO'S -- (arrow to gun port) LOOK HERE -- SMILE -- WAIT FOR -- FLASH
Posts: 245
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Post by jag on Nov 26, 2011 6:49:19 GMT -6
I can understand now why you think Marm and Savage deserve medals. I agree. The most heroic civilian act I have ever seen was caught on film. Anyone remember when that flight out of Washington, D. C.'s National Airport struck the 14th Street Bridge? I don't know how many people were killed, but there were those who didn't die in the crash. It was in the dead of winter and the Potomac was full of ice. A woman was struggling to stay afloat... she was near the bridge and in the middle of the river. Some male bystander who had witnessed the whole debacle, stripped off his outer clothing, jumped in the ice-filled river, swam out there, and brought the woman back to shore. Both survived.Personally, I have braved some bullets to save my troops, but my courage would have eluded me on the shores of the Potomac that day. That guy was a hero! Best wishes, Fred. Darn, and here all along I thought that guy was you. ;D You'll always be our hero Fred. With or without an ice filled river.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2011 8:47:07 GMT -6
Fred: Joe Marm was awarded the MOH. All of the others were awarded something, as were Freeman and Crandell initially. Freeman and Crandall received the Medal only recently, within the last few years. Freeman's came shortly before his death. Freeman was also a WWII and Korea vet, and received his battlefield commission after Pork Chop Hill. There may be some movement going on to look at the accounts of LZ X-Ray. I don't know, but there is always a possability that further awards are in the works. They keep a pretty close hold on that info, until the decision is made, and even then it is not publicly released until shortly before the award is made.
I lost a friend on that flight, and watched that very moment you speak of. If memory serves only three survived.
We have let the ideologs of both left and right determine our collective destinies for much to long.
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Post by bc on Nov 26, 2011 11:01:57 GMT -6
As for "Occupy Wall Street"... it has gotten a little out of hand. The initial concept was valid and had a good point, a point even a Wall Streeter like me understood and agreed with. As soon as the fringe groups get involved, however, a lot of the movement's legitimacy dissipates. What the hell are the unions bellyaching about? What, $125,000-a-year cops don't make enough? $100,000-a-year train conductors and toll booth collectors don't make enough? $75,000-a-year town water-meter readers don't make enough? Are states and cities to raise taxes on the private sector just so there won't be lay-offs in the public sector? And $75-an-hour assembly-line workers are underpaid? Then there are the poor struggling artists. You know, the ones who drape a tree in muslin and call it art; the clowns who weld together smashed auto parts and call that sculpture. Those are the ones from "Occupy Wall Street" who marched on the NYC museums because they consider MOMA a "palace of cultural elitism." The only thing stopping me from buying smashed auto parts is the stupidity of wasting money. Art my ass! Best wishes, Fred. Yep. That movement has run its course. Even though they picked the wrong target. Once they chose to obstruct the police trying to maintain some sanity, they lost my support. But then the police lost my support as well when they began using excessive force and doing things like pepper spraying people sitting on the ground in cuffs. Guess I'll prepare to be lambasted by the union workers on this board, but the unions have run their course as well regarding working conditions. Now they are just money grubbers. The unions have pretty much destroyed the aircraft industry in Wichita with their $50 an hour requirements to air hammer rivets. Time for the unions to be gone with the wind. bc
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Nov 26, 2011 11:09:59 GMT -6
Greetings to you too Richard My views were explained at length in my previous post, much of which you have chosen to ignoreThat is fine if the posts are indeed to the point and incorporate evidence to endorse opinion. Otherwise it becomes a tennis match not a debate or discussion!
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Post by bc on Nov 26, 2011 11:41:10 GMT -6
We have let the ideologs of both left and right determine our collective destinies for much to long. Which is the entire problem. All the politicians of all parties do is pander to the extremist minorities with their big mouths. The silent majority is being left in the dust with political knee jerk reactions every time someone in an extremist group gets their toe stepped on. Instead of allowing common sense to let things happen, they have to pass an Idiot's Law named for some idiot leader of a minority extremist movement/cause du jour. And then the lawmakers turn around and say we have too much regulation and too many laws. And another day in the life of a democratic republic goes on. Knees standing by ready to jerk. Another one of my pet peeves is those who think they can pick and choose certain parts of the Bill of Rights. All the amendments are there with equal footing. No playing favorites. No more expansion of search and seizure while invading rights of privacy for example. I keep hearing about a flag desecration amendment. Not sure why we need one. If they one want one then it should include desecrating the national anthem. Station an FBI sniper at all the sporting events and whenever one of these C & W singers goes off key or off word from the original version then the sniper can put everyone out of any misery from listening. Still havent received an order to prepare to dismount. bc
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2011 11:43:37 GMT -6
It is indeed a poor commander who goes into battle armed only with what he thinks his enemy will do. The wise commander knows his enemy as he knows himself, and is armed with the knowledge of what his enemy is capable of doing.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 26, 2011 11:46:58 GMT -6
Britt: And you will not receive such an order from me for your right to stay mounted in enshrined in the document you reference.
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Post by wild on Nov 26, 2011 14:24:32 GMT -6
Fred The man you speak of did not actually rescue anyone because he could not swim.What he did while others just looked on as the survivors struggled in the freezing waters was to attempt to wade out the the wreck.He could not reach it so he stood up to his chest among the ice floes shouting encouragement. The heroism was in risking his life to do the best he could. Best wishes
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Post by fred on Nov 26, 2011 14:57:07 GMT -6
Wild,
I do not remember it that way. I have seen the videotape of it a couple of times-- though not lately-- and I seem to remember someone swimming out and bringing that woman back. Of course, I could be wrong....
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 26, 2011 15:12:46 GMT -6
Wild,
It turns out we are both correct. The fellow you are referring to was named Roger Olian and he waded out two times to try to rescue people. He failed both times and bystanders hustled him into a jeep before he developed hypothermia. The fellow I am referring to was named Lenny Skutnik and he tore off his clothes and swam out to a gal named Priscilla Tirado whose husband and baby were both lost. There was another hero, a passenger and the only passenger to drown, a fellow named Arland Williams who, if I remember the Wiki story (after all, I read it almost three minutes ago!) spent about 26 minutes, total, in and out of the water. They even re-named the bridge after him. Now, these guys were heroes!!
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Nov 26, 2011 15:41:41 GMT -6
Indeed Fred heros all.
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Post by wild on Nov 27, 2011 1:42:07 GMT -6
Hi Hunk If so, I am in good company, Robert Utley, John Gray, Jim Donovan, Colonel W.A. Ganoe (U.S. Army) and Roger Darling. Perhaps Darling sums it up best, “After the Civil War it was only natural therefore to the resource-poor Indians as no serious threat to massed quantities of conventional arms, men and supplies…Perhaps the most significant obstruction to developing a doctrine of Indian warfare was racial arrogance…Moreover, Indian fighting capabilities were not respected; they were considered to be poor marksmen; …Considered cowardly and unprincipled…Such racial contempt not only fuelled undue army confidence, but led almost automatically to a sense of martial arrogance affecting commanders and troopers both.” If the village had been occupied only by nursing mothers and invalides the manner in which Custer deployed his force was wrong, The military system is rigid in order to compensate for the weaknesses in human nature.A system which contained within it the likes of racial arrogance, prejudices and preconceptions contained the seeds of it's own destruction. Human nature is a variable which if tolarated would render command and control futile. A rigid system means that all elements of a force know what is expected in response to an order.Adjoining units are aware of each others role. The last thing that is required is someone pulling a hussarian like stunt because of a whim or fanciful notion of superiority. Indian fighting capabilities were not respected; they were considered to be poor marksmen; …Considered cowardly and unprincipled…Such racial contempt not only fuelled undue army confidence, but led almost automatically to a sense of martial arrogance affecting commanders and troopers both.” Why would the Army ape the weaknesses of their enemy?Why do everything wrong because you have no respect for the fighting qualities of your foe? You can of course, continue to berate Custer for not fitting into your rigid military tactical template. For template read professionalism.Custer failed all professional criteria.That is what I judge him on. Best Wishes
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Nov 27, 2011 14:48:28 GMT -6
Hi Hunk If so, I am in good company, Robert Utley, John Gray, Jim Donovan, Colonel W.A. Ganoe (U.S. Army) and Roger Darling. Perhaps Darling sums it up best, “After the Civil War it was only natural therefore to the resource-poor Indians as no serious threat to massed quantities of conventional arms, men and supplies…Perhaps the most significant obstruction to developing a doctrine of Indian warfare was racial arrogance…Moreover, Indian fighting capabilities were not respected; they were considered to be poor marksmen; …Considered cowardly and unprincipled…Such racial contempt not only fuelled undue army confidence, but led almost automatically to a sense of martial arrogance affecting commanders and troopers both.”If the village had been occupied only by nursing mothers and invalides the manner in which Custer deployed his force was wrong, The military system is rigid in order to compensate for the weaknesses in human nature.A system which contained within it the likes of racial arrogance, prejudices and preconceptions contained the seeds of it's own destruction. Human nature is a variable which if tolarated would render command and control futile. A rigid system means that all elements of a force know what is expected in response to an order.Adjoining units are aware of each others role. The last thing that is required is someone pulling a hussarian like stunt because of a whim or fanciful notion of superiority. Indian fighting capabilities were not respected; they were considered to be poor marksmen; …Considered cowardly and unprincipled…Such racial contempt not only fuelled undue army confidence, but led almost automatically to a sense of martial arrogance affecting commanders and troopers both.”Why would the Army ape the weaknesses of their enemy?Why do everything wrong because you have no respect for the fighting qualities of your foe? You can of course, continue to berate Custer for not fitting into your rigid military tactical template.For template read professionalism.Custer failed all professional criteria.That is what I judge him on. Best Wishes Richard, mon ami, I think it best at this point to agree to disagree in a friendly way as we are clearly not going anywhere with this and I must take an enforced break from this addictive boards. A la prochaine. Hunk
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Post by rosebud on Nov 27, 2011 16:05:23 GMT -6
Due to the fact that no one stays on subject, I will ask this here because it will be a waste of time to start a new thread. It would be hi-jacked in less than one page.
How....When....Where did the Indians receive their Winchesters? I have heard many stories but not sure what to believe.
My guess is they were issued by Indian Agents but not sure when or how. You guys are great at digging up this kind of thing if there is a paper trail.
Thanks Rosebud
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