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Post by rosebud on Nov 24, 2011 17:38:56 GMT -6
Rosebud: LZ X-Ray was similar in the fact that the numbers were so overwhelmingly one sided. The finding had been accomplished previously by C/1-9 Cavalry, so there was no hunting involved. Moore and 1-7 knwe they were there and went in to bring them to battle. The story that is most like LBH is 2-7's march from LZ X-Ray to LZ Albany the next day. All true, but the numbers were not EXPECTED and that is what makes these as close as they are. Scouts have also found the Village for Custer. Both found they were in a situation beyond their control. Killdeer and LBH have nothing in common but Soldiers and Indians and that is about all.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 24, 2011 19:32:07 GMT -6
Rosebud: C/1-9 Cav had engaged in that are a day or so before taking out an NVA medical unit and hospital site, which provided the clue to what they thought I believe was an NVA regiment. It turned out to be a good part of an NVA division. So the similarity is there as far as the size of the (super)base camp (village) vice the smaller base camp they thought was there.
The 2-7 action on the following day involved yet another regiment of the same division moving into the area that discovered 2-7 on the march and cut them up pretty badly.
Don't know a whole lot about Killdeer, but from what I do know I believe you are correct. They were totally different situations.
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Post by bc on Nov 24, 2011 22:06:10 GMT -6
Chuck, I see Perkins is the new CG of Leavenworth and the Combined Arms School. Is that a promotion or a kick upstairs? You probably know him.
bc
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Post by quincannon on Nov 24, 2011 22:15:49 GMT -6
Perkins was here as CG 4th ID. The Leavenworth slot is a ticket to four. Don't know him personally. Have heard him speak. Good reputation. Not a showboat but aggressive. He is a heavy guy by background. Led a brigade into Baghdad. My guys in DC don't speak ill of him and they would if he was a perfumed prince.
Watch and see how long he is at Leavenworth. If he gets a fourth star before Odierno's term is up you may be looking at the next Vice or Chief
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Post by bc on Nov 24, 2011 22:35:49 GMT -6
Perkins was here as CG 4th ID. The Leavenworth slot is a ticket to four. Don't know him personally. Have heard him speak. Good reputation. Not a showboat but agressive. He is a heavy guy by background. Led a brigade into Baghdad. My guys in DC don't speak ill of him and they would if he was a perfumed prince. I saw he was coming from the 4th and your AO. Doesn't sound like he would be in Clair's hussar daydreams. I think his Leavenworth predecessor went to NATO which is a four star slot. Is that the progression nowadays to get to ACOS. Seem like the get two stars and a division command. Then float around the Pentagon for a while. Then back to division command. Then Leavenworth and then NATO before back to the Pentagon again. I'm probably leaving out a step with a war time army formerly in Iraq and one still in Afwasteourtimeastan. A peace time army will leave that step out. bc
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Post by bc on Nov 24, 2011 23:00:40 GMT -6
romeo yankee tango alpha yankee - india golf papa alpha yankee - alpha tango india november lima alpha yankee bc Britt, they should have thought of Pig Latin during WW2. Wouldn't have needed the wind-talkers. Be Well Dan Oscar tango november alpha yankee oscar tango alpha yankee oscar romeo romeo yankee whiskey alpha yankee. India tango alpha yankee tango india lima lima sierra alpha yankee echo alpha victor echo sierra lima alpha yankee alpha romeo kilo charlie lima oscar uniform delta delta alpha yankee india november alpha yankee hotel echo tango alpha yankee alpha romeo kilo delta alpha yankee India tango hotel whiskey alpha yankee tango oscar november Oscar romeo alpha yankee, hotel echo tango alpha yankee india echo foxtrot sierra Charlie hotel alpha yankee india lima lima whiskey alpha yankee echo alpha tango bravo alpha yankee hotel echo tango alpha yankee romeo oscar november charlie oscar sierra Bravo alpha yankee! bc
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Post by bc on Nov 24, 2011 23:08:07 GMT -6
Would Perkins just be just an overseer or does he have any input into the teaching philosophy at the C&GSC? Seems like the next NATO commander in the position to deal with high ranking officers from all the world's armies would be heavy into the mix at the college.
Do you know if any other countries have an equivalent C&GSC that we send officers to? I've never heard of one.
bc
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Post by montrose on Nov 25, 2011 4:29:05 GMT -6
LTG Perkins is waiting for a 3 star command. He is likely looking at a Corps Command or a combat JTF. He needs a 3 star command to be considered for a 4 star job.
There are many foreign counterparts to CGSC, we helped established most of them. Our NATO allies all have equivalents, and there are many in Latin America, and even my old stomping grounds in Africa.
Commanding Leavenworth is more a maintenance job, he will not take a hatchet to the curriculum. Only time that I am aware that a CG ordered major shift was when school was told to stop using old Fulda Gap scenarios in training.
Now this is the Army. They took many scenarios and just used a new map. Many of these exercises are for the students to plan how to deploy a corps to a fight, and support and sustain the force in combat to victory. There are many technical aspects that have to be drilled down. A full field order runs to hundreds of pages. For many exercises, the important part is getting all the pieces together.
But there are unintended consequences. I remember one scenario transformed Panama into a modern fighting force so we could invade. The northern attack used the mountain ridge line as its avenue of advance. Ummm, you know, those massive mountains surrounded by jungle, such a natural route for tanks and trucks. Goes without saying the COL in charge of designing scenarios is a hussar.
For the combat arms folks, we understand that the actual combat part of the exercise is all fiction. The problem is that the support folks can not break out of the Germany hidden background. Logistics is always easy. 70 ton bridges exist throughout the 3rd world. Dirt roads don't turn into muck. Getting our logistics right is the hardest part of operating in the 3rd World. I think CGSC unintentionally trains combat service support officers in how to fail.
Ten years of war has helped beat that out of them. Many of those folks are not stupid. (I said many, not all there is a COL at 18th Airborne Corps that I still remember as being insane).
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Post by fred on Nov 25, 2011 9:32:17 GMT -6
On this board and on the other board, I keep reading about the Killdeer Mt and the LBH. I do not understand why they ever try and use these as a comparison of how the Indians should or might respond to soldiers. Killdeer was in 1864. The Indians got their butts kicked and used that as a learning experience on how not to fight. Thinking they would fight the same way is beyond my comprehension. I do not know anything about the Killdeer battle, but I agree with you totally on the mind-set over yonder. I cannot even get through the never-ending posting of "letters" and "articles"-- sort of like the goo posted here by "Herosrest"-- not to mention the over-rationalization and the cherry-picking of favored phrases to justify ridiculous theories and assumptions. And actually, Rosebud, you have proven to be entirely too discriminating, rational, and intelligent to be wasting your time there. That befuddles me even more than the mind-bending stupidity I have read there. I think-- and some of you may disagree-- "keogh" has even blown past "conz" for hyperventilating claptrap. Clair has actually posted some intelligent things... or has my pablum gotten too cold? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 25, 2011 9:43:35 GMT -6
Britt: I agree with most of what Will says above. Don't think the assignment at Leavenworth will tell the complete tale of Perkins future, but the job he does there will determine his next one. If that next one at four stars is one of those that are anointed, then I think there is a fairly good chance he will be in line for a plumb.
I know a MAJ (P) who worked for him both here at Carson and in Iraq as a member of the division headquarters battalion. He has nothing but good to say about him. I also know a husband and wife 0-6 (retired) combination that were with the 3rd ID in Iraq when Perkins was a brigade commander. They once told me they both knew him, when he first arrived here. Both of them are now contractors and presently in Iraq working the withdrawl. Should be back in a couple of weeks. I will get their read on him and pass it along by PM. He is class of 1980, so perhaps you may know some of his classmates.
My impression of him the couple of times I have heard him speak, was of a softspoken man, very polite, impressive bearing, agressive but not flashy. Definately not a member of Clair's dream team. Those were public functions and not a true accessment of what the guy is like to work for.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 25, 2011 9:49:23 GMT -6
Fred: Your pablum is just right. Clair of late has been trying his best to moderate his comments, and maintain sanity to no avail.
Let Keogh alone. He is destroying himself quite nicely in the eyes of others. Never get in the way of a man who is hell bent on his own destruction.
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Post by bc on Nov 25, 2011 10:43:01 GMT -6
If they need supplies in Panama then use UPS, that's logistics. At least they aren't stuck to desert operations.
Besides invasions of Iran, does the cgsc deal with any police actions since that is the action du jour?
Any counter IED insurgency done?
Which reminds me, do we have any up and coming general officers with experience from Vietnam or is that war relegated to war game history?
bc
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Post by quincannon on Nov 25, 2011 10:53:10 GMT -6
Britt: The current Chief of Staff is Class of 76. The current director of the CIA is from Class of 74. Anyone with even a smidgen of Vietnam is on the retired list. The Vietnam era has come and gone, and I am not sure that experience would be all that helpful anyway.
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Post by fred on Nov 25, 2011 11:11:37 GMT -6
Queenie,
I agree with you totally about "keogh." 'Tis a shame, really. I once liked him a lot; now it's relegated to a polite handshake. I should have listened to Diane's advice from the beginning. Live and learn.
Speaking of "learn"ing, do not relegate Vietnam to the "been there, done that" pile. Patraeus' counter-insurgency treatise drew a lot more from Special Forces courses I took in 1964 than it did from the fertile minds of collegiate experts on counterinsurgency... whether he knows it or not... lessons re-learned. Leave it to our politicians and we will be right back in the jungles of somewhere. Even the most brilliant military mind since WWII-- in my opinion-- Bill DePuy, admitted his mistake at TRADOC when he tossed aside counterinsurgency warfare for the Fulda Gap mentality. DePuy's plans were rendered ineffectual because of politicians, and what you are seeing in Washington today about budgets and deficits, taxes and spending, will once again subside to the realities and vote-getting of some future geopolitical situation, handing us all 535 instant Field Marshals and driving the military batty... except of course, for the obsequious climbers.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 25, 2011 11:29:24 GMT -6
Fred: There is a lot of the Marine Small Wars manual of the 1930's and some from the Brits in Malaya as well. A now retired John Nagl had a lot to do with the writting of this latest tome, and an Autralian named Killcullen was also influential. I have seen both Nagl and Killcullen speak and I think they go to far in the solutions they present, but maybe that's just me. The real infighting is yet to be done. What will be interesting is to see what happens to Patreaus' brain trust - McMaster and others. That will tell which way the wind blows. There is a real smart guy teaching history at West Point named Gian Gentile. He has no use for any of them. You see a lot of Gentile's work in the "trade" magazines. Bright guy.
I happen to think DePuy was correct in what he called an active defense. The problem was the tactics and operational proceedures he advocated were unacceptable politically. There is only so much space you can trade for time.
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