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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 15, 2024 7:30:06 GMT -6
Good stuff! So knowing Weir and Edgerly got to Weir Peaks after 5:10, this all makes sense! Again confirms everyone who was there were indeed watching the death throes. How on Earth do you infer this from Rini's article? Rini does not say that Weir and Edgerly arrived at Weir Point after 5:10. You're assuming this and then using your assumption to draw your incorrect inference that everyone there saw only the death throes. Weir and Edgerly arrived there long before 5:10. Apparently you have not read Rini's entire timeline analysis, which has been available since 2013 on the LBH Associates Message Board as a locked post. Here's the part of Rini's analysis that deals with when Weir and Edgerly arrived at Weir Point and how long they stayed there: There is no real mystery over the length of time spent by D Co. at the Weir Peaks, despite the efforts of some to cover up this aspect of the battle. From our earlier investigation and analysis of the battle participants, we learned that D Co. moved out on their advance to the Peaks at about 2:55 p.m., or just a few minutes before Lt. Hare returned to Reno Hill from his 2 mile round trip ride to the advance pack mules carrying the ammunition. D Co. would likely have arrived on the Weir Peaks about 3:10 p.m. based on time/distance factors. We have also determined the likely time of D Co.'s withdrawal from Reno Hill in our analysis of that event placing the watch time for this at about 5:45 p.m. Thus, simple math tells us that D Co. remained out on the Peaks for roughly 2 1/2 hours before being recalled back to Reno Hill. Now the question is, can we support this timeframe from our participant accounts? Despite the efforts made by a number of officers to cover up this part of the battle, we are left with a number of significant statements that allow us to shed some light on the truth of this matter:
1) Lt. Edgerly (Carroll, The Gibson and Edgerly Narratives, p. 11, my interpretive comments in brackets): We stayed out there [on the Weir Peaks] about 2 hours, according to my recollection . . . .
ANALYSIS
Lt. Edgerly gives us a very modest estimate of 2 hours duration, which is actually about 30 minutes less that what we calculate to be the actual time his company spent out on the Peaks.
2a) Lt. Varnum (Carroll; Custer's Chief of Scouts, p. 144): Varnum (one of the last officers to reach the Weir Peaks) would testify that about one and one half hours were consumed from the time he reached Weir's company on the point until they returned to the defensive position on Reno Hill.
ANALYSIS
Lt. Varnum would have arrived on the Weir Peaks at sometime between 5:00 and 5:15 p.m. He then claims that 1 1/2 hours would go by from the time he arrived on the Peaks (5:00 to 5:15 p.m.) until all the companies had returned to their defensive position on Reno Hill. Varnum is telling us here that K Co. -- the last company to return to Reno Hill from the Weir Peaks -- got into the defensive corral there between 6:30 and 6:45 p.m., which supports the time given us by Lt. Godfrey for the arrival of K Troop on Reno Hill.
2b) Lt. Varnum (Camp Int., Custer in 76): He thinks [it] must have been 5:30 p.m. or later when the 3 companies moved down to support Weir.
ANALYSIS
Lt. Varnum estimates that it was close to 5:30 p.m. or later when the 3 companies (likely A, G & B) moved down to support Weir. I believe Varnum was off by 15 to 30 minutes in his time estimate above. Reno's last 3 companies likely had halted their advance to the Peaks by about 5:15 p.m. and began to fall back shortly afterwards to Reno Hill reaching the latter at about 5:30 p.m., but Varnum would not have known of this move as he was, at this time, out on the northern slopes of the Weir Peaks himself and well out of sight of Reno and these last 3 troops moving down the bluffs.
3) Lt. Hare (RCOI): said it was 1 1/2 hours from the time Weir advanced until they began to seriously engage the Indians.
ANALYSIS
Lt. Hare also mentions an important time reference above when he claimed that D Co. was not seriously engaged out on the Peaks for the next one and a half hours, a time in which the Indians were apparently fully engaged in fighting Custer's 5 companies. This supports Lt. Edgerly's estimate of being on the Peaks for about 2 hours with only the last 30 minutes engaged in skirmishing with the Indians. In other words, D Co. remained on the Peaks for 1 1/2 hours before engaging with the enemy.
4) Captain Weir (From an unpublished letter written by Capt. Weir on 22 Oct. 1876 (from the George Kush Collection):
"With our cherished ones deliverance within our grasp we waited breathless two hours, for the order that never came."
ANALYSIS
Captain Weir supports Lt. Edgerly's 2 hour duration of D Co.'s stay out on the Weir Peaks waiting for orders for a general advance to support Custer's wing that never came.
OVERALL ANALYSIS
The 4 officer accounts above support our timeline conclusion that D Co. remained on the Peaks from roughly 3:15 p.m. to 5:45 p.m., a span of time amounting to 2 hours and 30 minutes. The warriors engaged D Co during the final 30 minutes of their stay out on the Peaks, beginning at about 5:15 p.m. Prior to that time, from about 4:45 p.m. to 5:15 p.m. there was little or no sign of fighting from Custer's field, indicating that the Custer fight ended at about 5:00 p.m. thereabouts.
There is much confusion at to the sequence of events during D Co.'s stay out on the Peaks as several of the officers went out of their way to shorten and condense the actual time spent out on the Peaks by both D and M Troops.
CONCLUSION
3:10 p.m.: Lt. Edgerly and D Co. arrive on the Weir Peaks
3:40 p.m.: M Troop joins D Troop on the Weir Peaks
5:00 p.m.: K Troop followed by H Troop join D & M Troops on the Weir Peaks
5:15 p.m.: H Co. leaves the Weir Peaks; the Indians begin to move on the troops seen on the Weir Peaks. D Co. engages in long range fire with a group of these Indians on the lower ridges of the northern Peaks.
5:30 p.m.: H, A, G & B Troops as well as the Pack Train reach Reno Hill and begin to deploy there.
5:35 p.m.: K Co leaves the Weir Peaks after being recalled by Lt. Hare acting on orders from Major Reno, with M & D Troops acting as a Rear Guard.
5:40 p.m.: M Co. leaves the Weir Peaks. Capt. French advises Lt. Edgerly to do likewise.
5:45 p.m.: D Co. leaves the Weir Peaks.
5:50 p.m.: Trooper Vincent Charley is shot down about 650 feet (or just over 200 yards) south of the Weir Peaks. Lt. Godfrey dismounts K Troop about 500 yards north of Reno Hill to provide cover fire for M & D Co's. withdrawal from the Peaks.
5:55 p.m.: M Troop arrives at Reno Hill. D Troop passes K Troop on their retreat from the Peaks.
6:00 p.m.: D Troop arrives at Reno Hill.
6:00 - 6:40 p.m.: K Troop engages in their dismounted Rear Guard skirmish action until repeatedly recalled to fall back to Reno Hill.
6:45 p.m.: 1st Sgt. Winney of K Troop is killed at Reno Hill marking the general start of heavy skirmish firing directed at Reno Hill which continues till about 9 p.m.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 15, 2024 7:37:39 GMT -6
Harper "In the meanwhile, of course, Weir and Edgerly had long since reached the high ground down the bluffs, at approximately 5:10 p.m."
You do read these posts, don't you?
Wow Rini is really off! Edgerly saw the 3 companies coming down the bluffs after doing his loop in Cedar. Hare confirms this. I told you this... J41: "Some one may need to review the timing. I suggest that to include Weir arriving at 3:15..."
Remember - garbage in garbage out.
Edgerly When I got up on the bluff I saw Col. Benteen, Captain French and Lieutenant Godfrey coming toward us with their troops. We moved along on that bluff for a short distance, when the Indians commenced to fire on us. The troops were all dismounted, formed on the top of the ridge and returned the fire.
Hare "After they got out ahead Lt Hare came out with instructions from Reno to open up communications with Custer if they could. Hare returned to Reno then M, K, and H came out."
"When I reported to Major Reno he told me to go and tell Captain Weir, who had gone while I was gone for the pack train, to open communication with General Custer, and he would follow as soon as the pack train came up. After I delivered the order to Captain Weir, I returned to the command and met it coming downstream. I suppose the command moved about a mile downstream when they got to a high hill, the highest point around there"
So?? Pack train up in only 10-15minutes? And Edgerly headed out 30-35 minutes after getting there? Confusing that.
Obvious you were wrong then too.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 15, 2024 8:47:00 GMT -6
Question: Does your head want to explode when 3 "scholars" are all at odds with each other?
How do you know what to think??
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 15, 2024 9:19:17 GMT -6
Harper"In the meanwhile, of course, Weir and Edgerly had long since reached the high ground down the bluffs, at approximately 5:10 p.m."
You do read these posts, don't you? Wow Rini is really off isn't he? Edgerly saw the 3 companies coming down the bluffs after doing his loop in Cedar. Hare confirms this. As does mathey. I told you this... J41: "Some one may need to review the timing. I suggest that to include Weir arriving at 3:15..."Remember - garbage in garbage out. Edgerly When I got up on the bluff I saw Col. Benteen, Captain French and Lieutenant Godfrey coming toward us with their troops. We moved along on that bluff for a short distance, when the Indians commenced to fire on us. The troops were all dismounted, formed on the top of the ridge and returned the fire.
Hare "After they got out ahead Lt Hare came out with instructions from Reno to open up communications with Custer if they could. Hare returned to Reno then M, K, and H came out."Mathey, B & Pack train Q. How long after your arrival on the hill before the command moved down?A. I think about half an hour.Godfrey A. My recollection is the command was put in readiness to move soon after the ammunition packs came up, and it was then stopped to wait till the whole train came up and take everything along.Per Mathey - they soon headed out 1/2 hr later...so?? Of course you were wrong then too. More discrediting games. Perhaps you do not realize, or do not want to acknowledge, that, yes, Rini and Harper came up with different clock times for the Weir Point episode, but they substantially agree on the duration and sequence of the key events. I am guessing you also do not realize that Rini and Harper discussed the timelines extensively. Furthermore, both Rini and Harper point out that Reno and Benteen lied about several aspects of the move toward Weir Point; they both reject the myth that the fighting was over when Weir and Edgerly arrived at Weir Point; and they both argue that the Custer fight lasted at least two hours. But, you ignore all these points and focus on the fact that they came up with different clock times. You are still avoiding all the facts that Harper and Rini present that refute your RCOI-based version of the battle. You seek to pit Harper against Rini, yet you reject every single contrary fact that Harper and Rini document. Regarding the pack train, as I've explained before, the pack train was strung out and did not arrive all at once. Some of the pack train's ammo mules arrived 10-15 minutes after Benteen arrived. You keep making flawed arguments like this because you haven't mastered the data and refuse to deal candidly with contrary facts.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 15, 2024 9:23:33 GMT -6
That is because I do not rely too heavily on those who werent there. You do you!
Harper had a 50min delta. Rini had 1hr 50mins.
BIG difference, right?
Weir and Edgerly had long since reached the high ground down the bluffs, at approximately 5:10 p.m. K, M and H— started down the bluffs toward Weir Point. The time was about 5:40 p.m. French, Godfrey and Benteen reached the Weir Point area at about 6:00
Which is it? Who is right?!? Do YOU listen to Rini, or Harper…or maybe Gray??
As easily shown by the witnesses,\/ this is just another example of why you shouldn't rely too heavily on them either... They were wrong. See all the primary witnesses who stated otherwise. See Harper's timing. See Camp
WMC As no one in particular was exercising command, one captain, out of impatience, had advanced a mile or more with his troop in the direction of Custer, going within full view of about half of Custer's battlefield 2 or 2 1/2 miles distant in an air line. Custer's resistance had now ended and the officers of this troop saw, through their glasses but without understanding at the time what they saw, the Indians killing Custer's wounded.
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 15, 2024 9:42:33 GMT -6
That is because I do not rely too heavily on those who werent there. You do you! In most cases you rely on Reno and Benteen, the two most unreliable, discredited primary sources. Your case implodes on this basis alone. This is one reason I do not take you seriously. Oh! Wow! So all the historians and scholars who have written about the battle in the last 20 years have misread or misunderstood the primary sources, and they are all wrong and you are right! And who are you again? What are your qualifications? FYI, Gordon Harper read many more primary sources than you have read. Ditto for Bill Rini, and James Donovan, and Thom Hatch, etc., etc. Just in the few weeks that we have been debating here, you have made a number of inexcusably erroneous claims and have proved on several occasions that your research on the battle has been deficient.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 15, 2024 9:44:33 GMT -6
Sheesh - YES!!! I have been telling you that for weeks! Not always do they mis-understand. Not always are they wrong, of course - but surprisingly often. As pointed out numerous times now. When they disagree w/each other ONE OF THEM IS WRONG. An hour difference on a well-documented advance?! Yikes!! Then there are all the myths they pass down over and over and over. Ugh. My quaifications? I can read. And I can think for myself. Waaaa...you do you! Stay naive...it is ok! I prefer the facts, given and confirmed by those who were actually there. Remember - CONFIRMATION is key! You should try his "Companion" Gives access to LOTS of those primary sources to refer to! Then there's this whole "internet" thingie... If only someone can show this to be true. It hasn't been you. You have provided very little relevant primary evidence to contradict much of anything I have stated...AKA what those who were actually there actually stated.
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 15, 2024 11:30:34 GMT -6
YES!!! I have been telling you that for weeks! Not always do they mis-understand. Not always are they wrong, of course - but surprisingly often. As pointed out numerous times now. When they disagree w/each other ONE OF THEM IS WRONG. Then there are all the myths they pass down over and over and over. One problem with your polemic is that those historians and scholars do not disagree on any major point. They all agree that Reno performed poorly. They all agree that Benteen failed to act on Custer's written order. They all agree that Reno and Benteen lied repeatedly at the RCOI in an effort to conceal their failures. They all agree that Custer may have succeeded, or at least likely would have survived, if Reno and Benteen had performed competently. All but two of them agree that Custer acted capably and reasonably based on the information he had at the time. The two exceptions are Gompert and Kugler, who argue that Custer performed well based on what he knew until it became clear that Reno had failed, and that even then his decisions were defensible but flawed. They all agree that Custer did not disobey Terry's orders. Etc., etc., etc. In other words, you have none. So I guess all the primary sources that Rini cites in his article, i.e., "facts given by those who were actually there," don't count, huh? How about all the primary sources that Kuhlman cited--those don't count either? Or, let me guess: your reading of those sources is better than Rini's and Kuhlman's, right?! Even though they read far more primary sources than you have. Surely you know that Gordon Harper viewed your version of the battle as erroneous. Anyone who reads your posts here and who reads Harper's book will readily see that. I've provided a great deal of primary evidence, as anyone who reads my posts can see. Other than Reno and Benteen, few primary sources support your version of the battle, as we see in Bill Rini's article, in Kuhlman's book, in Donovan's book, in Harper's book, in Hatch's book, in Sklenar's book, in Philbrick's book, in Behncke and Bloomfield's book, in Stiles' book, in Hardoff's book, etc., etc., etc. They cite an abundance of primary sources, some of which you clearly have not read, and they prove that the primary sources refute the old view that Custer acted rashly and incompetently and that Reno and Benteen did nothing seriously wrong.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 15, 2024 11:57:55 GMT -6
That's great - of course little to none of that was referred to in my posts. Or argued. But you enjoy the things they do agree on. 👍🏻
I wonder what portion of “the lies” you and others think Reno and Benteen told aren't; i.e. wonder how many of the statements they made are actually correct. Clearly there's quite a few. Hint: Views from where they actually were would be key. Among other various issues, like guidons, deployments, etc. If 'you' dont even know where they were, or what they saw or heard, you can’t judge.
Thanks! Makes it even more amazing that I figure this stuff out! I am a bit surprised myself at times - that others just struggle for some reason.
Yep. With so many sources available, easy to tell when the authors get it right. IF they are wrong about even basic stuff like who actually went where, or insist on telling us what [someone meant] instead of what they actually said, or are confusing point A vs point B, or time X vs time Y, then they weren't. Often easy to figure that too.
I list and relate a lot of good primary info quite well!...with VERY little of my own take on things and lots of confirmation.
That's nice. What Troop was Harper in? And which is “my version”?? Since "my" version(?) consists almost totally listing/relating/confirming statements made by those who were actually there, I’d say it's their version. I'll go with them. Harper is ok, but made mistakes, as I point out. He was comparatively very good though! Like his timeline re: the Weir advance. And his Companion. And him understanding why you and others are still so confused about Benteen, and what high poin the was actually on and where it is.
At least he was onto something. Kuhlman, Philbrick, Donavan - good overviews. But have their differences. Some good takes some bad. Ah well. Same old myths getting passed down over and over for years. Sad.
Don't know - I only saw he was way off in his timing. Haven't read his article. Did he screw up other simple stuff too? A quick look above shows he too skipped right over o rmixed up the various locales, so yeah. He was wrong. VITAL mistake. Makes his timing and ANY OTHER related notions seem shabby.
Anyone who reads your posts can see you have an agenda, and that you have provided a great deal of what some "professional scholar" told you to think. Fine - you do you. You have presented very little correct or meaningful primary evidence. Quoting what some “historian” came up with based on some other “scholar” doesn’t make it evidence…just another quote of someone else’s opinions. Interesting maybe, but otherwise…meh. It does not impress.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 18, 2024 14:49:19 GMT -6
William I was around when this thread began and I thank you for it. How has it descended to such depths.
Regards, Tom
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 20, 2024 10:12:01 GMT -6
Let's remember that Lt. Hare said that when he was at Weir Point "the Indians were especially thick" at the Custer scene and that Custer "was fighting them." Also, Two Moons said that Custer's men were still fighting when some of the warriors decided to go confront Reno's men at Weir Point. Furthermore, in an 1877 letter, Lt. Garland wrote that he heard Edgerly tell General Sturgis that he saw and heard Custer's force from where he and Weir stood at the Weir locale (Liddic, Vanishing Victory, pp. 137-138).
Benteen told the RCOI the demonstrable falsehood that the Custer battlefield was not visible from Weir Point, and that he had confirmed this by going over the battlefield "two or three times since." As Liddic notes with sharp language, anyone who has stood on Weir Point can see that Benteen was lying:
Today, the reader can judge for himself the utter fallaciousness of this pronunciation by standing on Weir Point and looking at the Custer battlefield. (Vanishing Victory, p. 138)
I think Kuhlman hit the nail on the head when he discerned that there was a determined effort among many of the witnesses to conceal the fact that Custer was still fighting when troops first arrived at Weir Point.
I am not wed to any certain amount of time for how long Custer fought after Weir's company arrived at Weir Point. It may have only been a short time, maybe as little as 10 minutes, although some believe it was much longer. However, I do not believe that Custer's men had ceased resisting, i.e., were all dead or too wounded to fight, by the time Weir got to Weir Point.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 20, 2024 13:02:06 GMT -6
How could it be said that Benteen lied about what he saw ‘at Weir Point’, if Benteen was never at Weir Point??
Interesting that, right? Liddic too, huh? (and Hunt, BTW) garbage in, garbage out. Benteen "A. The troops were by file on a line of river bluffs and, as I have stated, another company was formed at right angles on another ridge. I planted a guidon at the highest point that looked over that country. Some of the officers say that the battlefield was in sight, but I know positively that it was not, having gone over it two or three times since"
Benteen was right. As shown numeorus times now, all the evidence (which I actually post a lot) confirms Harper was right. As even you correctly agree. Benteen was NOT on an elevation at or near Weir Point.Clearly Benteen WAS NOT talking about what he could see from Weir Point, since “ Benteen was never on or near the highest elevation" at Weir Point!Benteen WAS on the highest point that point 7, at Weir's Hill.
Benteen WAS correct about what he said he could see (and later confirmed) from where he actually said he was…”the highest point”.
There is NO view of the battlefield from the top of the highest Hill, which Benteen was actually on - AKA Weir's Hill. There IS however, a partial view of the village...(see Martin re: Custer, or "glimpse" - see Benteen, & "G".} WMC "from Weir Hill can see the Custodians house but not the monument nor any part of Custer battlefield""From this hill, can only see the Hunkpapa & Black feet lodges”Benteen Q. State whether at that highest point you saw any evidence of fighting or hear the sounds of any firing. A. I saw no such evidence nor heard any firing.
Edgerly, before D advanced to point 9 Weir Point "{Weir} then walked towards Colonel Reno and Benteen, and very shortly came back, mounted his horse, took an orderly with him and went out in the direction from which we had heard the firing and which had then almost wholly ceased"Benteen "...about 3/4ths of a mile lower down, from the top of the highest point in vicinity, saw Weir’s troop returning" {WMC - it is 3200' from Reno corral to point 7/WH} "That was my first sight of the village after I arrived at that high point. That was the only point from which it could be seen...There was no sign of any troops or of any fighting going on, nothing of the kind could be seen. We had not been more than 2 or 3 minutes at that high point before the gorge was filled with Indians rushing towards us" {see Benteen sketch "G" - the high point where Custer also got HIS first glimpse of the village. See Cedar for the "gorge" he is actually talking about} Yep. If anyone, "scholar" or otherwise, is going to accuse someone who was there of lying or being wrong, you would think the accuser would at least want to get it right re: what/where/when the witness was actually talking about. THIS IS WHY KNOWING WHEN & WHERE PEOPLE ACTUALLY WERE, AND WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAID ABOUT WHERE THEY ACTUALLY WERE, IS SO IMPORTANT! As I have been saying. Benteen "...another company was formed at right angles on another ridge." {Note that Martin's Ridge and SS Ridge are there too, & the ridge along the bluffs - see Wallace on 'another ridge'} Wallace, troop G at Weir's Hill Locale Q. Was Captain Weir coming back, halting or moving on? A. At the time they were skirmishing in front. Q. Did that column of Major Reno’s join in the fight or skirmish there? A. He {Reno} prepared to take part in it. My company was sent to a high point to the right. Another company came up on my left and assignments were made. The command then occupied two almost parallel ridges with no way of defending the space between them.Weir’s Hill, Martin's Ridge, & SSRidge - halfway between reno corral and Weir Point
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