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Post by wild on Aug 11, 2024 0:20:41 GMT -6
"This part of the fight did not, from all reports, last over two or three hours." The observation was not a neutral one trying as it did not to add insult to injury ie the destruction of an "elite" regiment took only 15 minutes. And the 33% error allowance renders the opinion useless. Best regards
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Post by shan on Aug 11, 2024 4:12:49 GMT -6
Words spoken which are then written up can seem to morph into whatever the reader wishes to make of them.
After having read these acounts for years now, I still find it hard to make head nor tail of what I'm reading. I suspect that most of the men being questioned felt under threat, or if not, then somewhat intimadated by the situation they found themselves in. Now I'm not saying that they lied, but I do think they were careful about what they were saying, not least because it might affect the careers of some of their comrades.
However, as well as the strain the men being questioned were under, the people doing the questioning must have been aware of different kinds of pressure. The nation wanted answers, as did the military, and in that regard, they too must have been kooking over their shoulders.
Personally, I doubt that the Custer fight could have lasted as long as 3 hours. If we're to take some of these men at their word, the fighting was done and dusted on Calhoun by the time they arrived, so what they saw was not so much mopping up as looting amd maiming. Now if there was heavy fighting still going on in other sectors, one would have thought they'd have heard some heavy firing which would have led to comment, but it seems it didn't. Oh well, the mystery goes on and on and on.
Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 11, 2024 4:25:23 GMT -6
Did they actually have enough ammo to fight for three hours?
Ian
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 11, 2024 8:45:35 GMT -6
"This part of the fight did not, from all reports, last over two or three hours." The observation was not a neutral one trying as it did not to add insult to injury ie the destruction of an "elite" regiment took only 15 minutes. And the 33% error allowance renders the opinion useless. Best regards One, you obviously have not read Kuhlman--or Harper. Two, your reading of Maguire's statement defies all logic and ignores the plain meaning of English. To anyone not determined to peddle Reno-Benteen mythology, Maguire's statement sets a minimum duration for "this part of the fight" at two hours. It is interesting to note that Kuhlman, who always bent over backward to avoid assigning malevolent motives for bad actions, came up with an inventive innocent excuse for all the lying and deception about Custer's status when the troops reached Weir Point, about how long Custer's fight lasted, and about how soon the Indians attacked Weir Point--namely, that the officers on Weir Point were later traumatized when they realized they had viewed Custer's field of battle and that Custer's men could see them, and that the men on Weir Point somehow did not understand at the time that Custer needed reinforcements and that he was being destroyed: Nor would it be fair to lay the whole discrepancy to a conscious effort to put the best face on the event. As soon as they learned what had happened to Custer they knew they had looked on his field of battle for a good hour or more while he and his men were fighting for their lives and wondering why the troops they could see through the dust and smoke did not rush to their assistance. That was too painful a thought to carry through life and it is one of the few kindly dispensations of Mother Nature that She had so constituted us that we, without being aware of it, so gloss over the reality as to alleviate the emotional distress as far as possible.
From what has gone before it is easily seen that the movement to and from Weir Point was without order or unified direction. The Court was to determine whether or not Reno had performed his duty in a soldierly manner, and here was a fact which seemed to imply that his conduct had been considerably short of perfection; and it was this fact which caused both Reno and Benteen to make the reckless statements characterizing their testimony.
Although Benteen’s conduct was not under investigation he actually out-did even Major Reno in distorting facts. . . .
Can anyone who has been on Custer Hill and noted how clearly Weir Point stands out, doubt that Custer saw the troops there? Nor would General Custer have been the only one who was watching the trail. Cooke, Tom Custer, and many others would have been certain to do so. . . .
There can be little doubt that every officer on Weir Point knew where Custer was fighting, though they could not see the troops. They, or most of them, knew also that he had been fighting for at least an hour. What they did not know was his desperate need of reinforcements, or that he was being completely wiped out. But the Court of Inquiry did not possess the independent means of checking on the testimony such as we have today. (Legend into History, pp. 171-172, 183-184)
I'm guessing that even Reno-Benteen apologists see problems with Kuhlman's excuse. The officers on Reno Hill knew that a large Indian force had attacked Reno's command when they left the timber. They also knew that this same large force had suddenly left Reno Hill and taken off toward the area where Custer had been heading. They also knew they had heard heavy firing to the north and that this had to Custer. And they surely knew that Custer's men would need more ammo very soon. Nevertheless, Kuhlman deserves great credit for being the first to peel through the layers of lies, distortions, and omissions in the RCOI testimony on the crucial issue of the duration of Custer's fight and on the related issue of how soon the Indians attacked Weir Point. Gordon Harper, among others, followed up on Kuhlman's important breakthrough, taking advantage of information that was not available to Kuhlman.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 11, 2024 10:54:31 GMT -6
Harper, re: Custer repulsed "He moved the two battalions out of Medicine Tail to the higher ground north and east, with Yates on the left and Keogh on the right. The time was approximately 3:25 p.m."
Gordon Richard, Harper RIGHT wing, 5:00-5:20 P.M. Captain Keogh could only watch in dismay as C Company disintegrated under the warrior onslaught.
LEFT WING, 5:10-5:20 P.M. Whatever hope Armstrong Custer entertained of being reunited with Keogh’s battalion was even now being destroyed…Custer’s hopes of a union with Keogh were totally shattered when the five C Company men galloped into view. They quickly confirmed that the Right Wing had been destroyed”
Harper "In the meanwhile, of course, Weir and Edgerly had long since reached the high ground down the bluffs, at approximately 5:10 p.m."
Witnesses confirmed. Indians seen mopping up. Weir Troops dismounted. Indians attack D. Retreat ordered.
Myths of myths dispelled, mysteries solved.
‘fight did not last more than 2 hours...’ :: halt at B to end at E seems just about right.
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Post by shan on Aug 11, 2024 11:51:21 GMT -6
Yan
your absolutely right to ask if they had enough ammunition to fight for three hours, especially if you take into account the fact that there are a number if Indian accounts ~ both oral and visual, which talk about running off numerous horses from at least two seperate areas ~ those that were being held a lshort distance behind L company, plus those belonging to E troop in the last stand area. If we also assume that there may have been other instances involving fewer numbers, this means that Custer's force may have lost more than half their mounts before the last stand, which in turn means that they'd have lost access to the extra ammunition the horses were carrying. A terrible pychological blow.
Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 11, 2024 12:43:38 GMT -6
Another thing Shan, if the casings found on Luce, Nye-Cartwright ridges are from the battle, then Custer fired off quite a number of rounds in MTC even before they crossed deep coulee.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Aug 12, 2024 2:38:05 GMT -6
Another thing Shan, if the casings found on Luce, Nye-Cartwright ridges are from the battle, then Custer fired off quite a number of rounds in MTC even before they crossed deep coulee. Ian But surely the jet engine mules could just appear with more ammo? "The Short Lightning Bolts", as we call them here 8especially in rough terrain)! Geir
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 12, 2024 4:06:24 GMT -6
Harper, re: Custer repulsed "He moved the two battalions out of Medicine Tail to the higher ground north and east, with Yates on the left and Keogh on the right. The time was approximately 3:25 p.m."Gordon Richard, Harper RIGHT wing, 5:00-5:20 P.M. Captain Keogh could only watch in dismay as C Company disintegrated under the warrior onslaught.
LEFT WING, 5:10-5:20 P.M. Whatever hope Armstrong Custer entertained of being reunited with Keogh’s battalion was even now being destroyed…Custer’s hopes of a union with Keogh were totally shattered when the five C Company men galloped into view. They quickly confirmed that the Right Wing had been destroyed”Harper "In the meanwhile, of course, Weir and Edgerly had long since reached the high ground down the bluffs, at approximately 5:10 p.m." Witnesses confirmed. Indians seen mopping up. Weir Troops dismounted. Indians attack D. Retreat ordered. Myths of myths dispelled, mysteries solved. ‘fight did not last more than 2 hours...’ :: halt at B to end at E seems just about right. You are misrepresenting Harper's analysis and, once again, avoiding the main points. Even the Harper text you quote refutes the Reno-Benteen lie that Custer's fight was over before Weir reached Weir point. And why didn't you mention Harper's point that Custer's left wing was still fighting between 5:20 and 5:30, 20 minutes after Weir got to Weir Point (pp. 317-320)? You also ignore Harper's point that, contrary to Reno and Benteen, the Indians did not attack Weir Point as soon as Weir arrived there. Part of the problem is that you refuse to unpack Reno and Benteen's numerous lies but just take their word and proceed from there, even though Harper, like Kuhlman, refutes Benteen's lie that he followed closely behind Weir, and refutes Reno's lie that he followed closely behind Benteen. Once one acknowledges that Benteen arrived at Weir Point much later than he claimed, his testimony about what he saw after he arrived logically becomes unreliable, not to mention irrelevant regarding how long the Custer fight lasted. If memory serves, you have acknowledged that Benteen's claim that Custer was destroyed by the time Martin arrived with the written order is false. Then how, how, how can you keep citing him to support your version of the battle? And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have also acknowledged that Reno's claim that Custer was destroyed before he left the timer is also bogus, right? If so, then how in the world can you keep citing him to support your case? When two witnesses tell such whopping, egregious lies, credible and objective researchers will not cite them, unless they are contradicting their own lies (e.g., Reno's admission in his battle report that he knew Custer would attack from the flank). On a side note, one obvious proof that Benteen lied about when Custer was destroyed is that if the Indians had already finished off Custer when Martin reached Benteen, Boston Custer never would have made it to Custer Hill to die with his brother--he would have been killed well short of that location.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 12, 2024 4:32:00 GMT -6
Who mentioned Reno & Benteen?
You need to read better...Weir. Edgelry. Varnum. Wylie. Standing Bear. Godfrey. Hare. Ryan.
THEY were there - most of ‘em 1st - witnessing the end/at Weir Point...THEY are key witnesses. Their statements are confirming.
Benteen & Reno weren't out there, and so I did NOT QUOTE THEM NOR DO WE NEED TO. MOST THEIR COMMENTS REFER TO THEIR EXPERIENCE AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION. Those are not applicable to what can be/was seen (or heard) from Weir Point.
Harper "..the bulk of the evidence is that he was never on the highest ground {at Weir Point} with or without his company and that he in truth was not at the advanced position for very long at all."
True - as already shown. Beneen/H was back along the buffs, and then him and Reno were 1/2mile behind on Weir's Hill.
Those 2 DID set up deployments at the Weir's Hill locale and see the Weir advance retreat back to them, being chased by Indians.
We were discussing what actual witnesses saw from Weir Peaks. We were talking Keough/right wing...
Since you need to rely on him so much, you should also check Harper about what could even be seen on the battleground, from the Peaks .
"This last observation seems to embody the absolute logic of the situation, but it is not necessary to assume that the Custer fight was totally ended when the troops arrived on Weir Point, because it would have been virtually impossible to see much of anything beyond Calhoun Ridge and Hill."
I said he was wrong. I also think he is wrong about his 1879 take on Custer's route (and '76 take about 5 troops getting into the village). He shouldn't have changed his mind by 1879 re: those former 2 comments.
Simple - Benteen was there, and alot of what he says can be confirmed by many others who were there, and other period information.
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Post by shan on Aug 12, 2024 5:01:35 GMT -6
Yan,
I think we've hit on something which isn't often taken into account. Custer knew that he was going to need more ammuntion hence the PS bring packs tag on the note he sent with Martin. Of course he had no idea how quickly things would go wrong,and probably never envisaged that he might lose nearly half his horses with the ammo they were carrying.
The Indian camp was bigger than he'd allowed for, but then he hadn't listened to the warnings from his scouts. Plus the warriors were more confident than usual after having seen Crook's force off, and besides they had families to defend. But then this was war, and he was a seasoned operater and so I'm sure he must have thought he could handle it.
Given the evidence, I think most people can agree that what Weir was seeing was a mopping up operation over on Calhoun hill. Most of L and C company men were dead or dying, whilst down behind them in the valley, out of sight of Weir, the Indians were driving what was left of L company towards Last Stand hill where the men with Custer were already heavily engaged. By the time that Weir withdrew most of Custers force were either dead or dying. Even the Indians were surprised by how quickly it was over, but then they would have been too busy swapping stories and looting to worry about those other men as yet.
Shan
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Post by mikegriffith1 on Aug 12, 2024 6:30:00 GMT -6
Who mentioned Reno & Benteen? [SNIP] Oh, there must be another johnson1941, or perhaps someone else is using your computer without your knowledge! I say this because someone posting with the username johnson1941 has repeatedly cited Reno and Benteen, over and over and over again, in this thread and in many other threads, as if they are reliable witnesses. Sorry, my bad. I naively assumed there was only one johnson1941 or that only you were using your computer. You have once again avoided Harper's central points about the Weir locale episode. Let me repeat them: The Custer fight was not over when Weir arrived at Weir Point, contrary to what Reno, Benteen, and a few others falsely claimed. Benteen lied when he said he left Reno Hill soon after Weir did. Reno lied when he said he ordered the movement toward Custer, and when he said he left Reno Hill soon after Benteen did. Reno and Benteen and a few others lied when they said the Indians began attacking Weir Point as soon as Weir arrived there. And Kuhlman backed up every one of these points. "Wrong"? He wasn't just "wrong." He lied. There is a difference between being honestly mistaken and telling a scurrilous lie to cover up drunken incompetence. The fact that you can't admit that he lied makes it impossible to take you seriously. This nonsense is inexcusable in 2024. Such an erroneous view of Reno's reliability has not been credible for decades. For at least the last two decades, every single historian and scholar who has been published on the subject has concluded that Reno lied repeatedly and that he cannot be trusted as a source (except when he spoke against interest). Even if we assume that Reno truly believed that Custer's command was already destroyed by the time Reno left the timber, this would prove that Reno's perception of reality was severely warped and unreliable. How could any rational person have believed that Custer's unit had already been wiped out when Reno left the timber, given the heavy firing that was heard later, and given that some of Reno's men saw Custer's command when Reno began his valley charge? By the time Reno told this whopping tale, he was aware that some of his men had seen Custer's command at the start of the valley fight, but he lied anyway. I am unaware of a forum on another historical issue where there are a number of people who dismiss the long-standing scholarly consensus on the issue and who insist on repeating myths that were debunked decades ago.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 12, 2024 6:34:08 GMT -6
Please post one place in this thread where I quoted Reno and /or benteen. Clue- there isn’t.
Sure - cause in many other threads their statements are related to the topic being discussed. They were there. Their various statements, reports and letters etc. are especially useful when they are confirmed by others there, as happens often. They provide LOTS of good info and also offer confirming facts to help cleardetails.
Which "Weir Locale" do you mean? There are 2 of them. Until we know that - we don't know whose points or comments were made about what or where, and whether they were right or not. (well - I do, but others don't seem to get it) We DO know your heroes are often confusing the locations. AT least Harper recognized a cause for that confusion re: Benteen's actual advance vs Weir Peaks vs. where he actually planted the guidon; though Harper had a bit himself. As I point out numerous times.
Until then, I will again refer to the actual witnesses WHO DID COMMENT, ON THIS TOPIC*...
*J41: "was Keough even among the living when Weir got to Weir Peaks?"
...and are most helpful cause they were indeed at the Weir POINT locale.
Answer? NO. The indians were mopping up. As shown via the witnesses & re:the timing, IOW Keough most likely wasn't among the living.
You're welcome - I am glad I could help by pointing out the facts, as provided & confirmed by those who were there. As I mentioned A TON - DO NOT trust the 'scholars' to always get it right!
This from Kuhlman quote above, in 1951(?)...I think his head would maybe explode with all the access we have to so much primary info these days! We know he messed this up.
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Post by wild on Aug 12, 2024 12:14:05 GMT -6
The markers don't lie. The command was scattered over a mile with no semblance of order or command and control. The entire command was outflanked and each individual company was outflanked. Nowhere had they fire superiority and the spare ammo in the saddlebags was lost. None of the companies occupied a defensive position. They fought in the open or from behind dead horses. Except for individuals doing a runner there is zero evidence of a break out. Custer brought his command of 200+men to within 4 minutes of at least 2000 warriors, not in any combat ready formation but in a parade ground line of march. It was so easy ...like taking candy off a baby. Best Regards
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 12, 2024 12:57:39 GMT -6
Yan, I think we've hit on something which isn't often taken into account. Custer knew that he was going to need more ammuntion hence the PS bring packs tag on the note he sent with Martin. Of course he had no idea how quickly things would go wrong,and probably never envisaged that he might lose nearly half his horses with the ammo they were carrying. The Indian camp was bigger than he'd allowed for, but then he hadn't listened to the warnings from his scouts. Plus the warriors were more confident than usual after having seen Crook's force off, and besides they had families to defend. But then this was war, and he was a seasoned operater and so I'm sure he must have thought he could handle it. Given the evidence, I think most people can agree that what Weir was seeing was a mopping up operation over on Calhoun hill. Most of L and C company men were dead or dying, whilst down behind them in the valley, out of sight of Weir, the Indians were driving what was left of L company towards Last Stand hill where the men with Custer were already heavily engaged. By the time that Weir withdrew most of Custers force were either dead or dying. Even the Indians were surprised by how quickly it was over, but then they would have been too busy swapping stories and looting to worry about those other men as yet. Shan Well Shan, I must have been down this rabbit hole many, many times over the last 12 years. I have heard that the note ment just the ammo mules and not all the packs, I heard that Custer knew that Reno was beaten but he still expected Benteen to drag his battalion and the pack train over the bluffs to help out the attack. I also remember the one about about the Keogh battalion staying on Luce ridge to wait for Benteen whilst Custer went off for a look see, but for some reason Keogh pulled his command off the high ground to defend calhoun hill. There is more but I cant summon the brain cells enough to remember. You cant defend battle ridge and its extensions with five week companies especially againts the forces which came at them so something went wrong. Keogh,s battalion was knocked about pretty badly and forced north and Custer's group got forced south, so we are talking about attacks from all directions. There are strong evidence that Crazy Horses split Keogh in two as he and over 200 mounted warriors rode through a gap in battle ridge. But to put a time on this is too hard to judge, Calhoun was holding his position till his right flank went pear shaped and even at the latter stages on LSH, the Indians kept back and just fired arrows till the shooting stopped then in with the clubs. You have to factor all these little skirmishes to come up with a time, which would be nigh on impossible. Ian
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