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Post by quincannon on Aug 20, 2011 8:29:06 GMT -6
I am not going to try to convince or change minds. More along the lines of musings that somehow get in print.
I like the Godfrey version of Custer's route for the reasons I previously stated. I don't think he had any particular destination in mind. If he moved east in the first place, we assume he had some degree of knowledge that there was a ford. Most think that information was given to him by his scouts previous visits to this area. If he knew about a ford, then it is most logical he knew about fords. So I think any one of them could have been his destination depending upon the situation that existed when he arrived.
Why did he get to Battle Ridge? Why did he fight his battle there? The circumstance of no choice. He was either driven there and run to ground, or he was caught there, in the act so to speak.
The first would suggest that the action started somewhere else, probably on the ridge complex, and somehow moved down into MTC Coulee. From then on, the firing line at FF, as a delay, and the whole body being pushed back on to Battle Ridge and destruction, is pretty much in line with DC, JAG, and Wild, and the location of the route he took is in line with Rosebud. I think Dan would be pleased as well.
What I do not see is any of these cohesive tactical maneuvers taking place. Assuming Custer was not wounded, and I do assume that, he could not exert a lot of command and control anyway in the situation anyone of us have in our mind's eye for what happened. Any decisions would have to be on the part of a company commander. There is no way that I know of to exert that control above that level.
In order for any of the various models we are all familiar with to have happened, there would have had to have some centrailzed direction to exist. Take away any one of these events, which are treated by the modeler as cold hard fact (mostly without cold hard cause) and the model falls to pieces.
Keogh's model as an example depends on each little element being there or the entire thing falls like a house of cards. In a courtroom that would be called assuming facts not in evidence. We have no way of knowing who among the dead men said what to whom. We have no evidence that someone sent Company C down to FF Ridge to aid in a link up between Custer and Reno/Benteen. We have the bodies of Company C on FF Ridge, but we have absolutely no knowledge of why they are there, who sent them, or in fact if anyone sent them. only speculation. We have no evidence that Custer with Yates' squadron was looking for good defensive ground. We have no evidence that Keogh was a rear guard. We have no evidence that Keogh was incompetent because of where his body and the bodies of his soldiers were found. We have no evidence of a stiff and prolonged fight at Calhoun Hill.
What we have is a lot of markers placed (and one still assumes here) at or somewhat near where these people were killed. We have stories told through translators which are only foxhole eye views of battle which may have been significantly altered by accident or on purpose by the translators. We have Victorian age sensibilities at play where one person, perhaps to spare the feelings of a spouse or loved one, embelishes a part of the story to the point where the embelishment becomes fact.
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Post by benteen on Aug 20, 2011 8:31:47 GMT -6
" It's why I don't think Custer was in charge and that the mission of the officers about him was getting him to immediate safety. Would work if another family member was hurt and likely to fall into the hands of the Sioux if steps weren't taken. . Dark Cloud, Your opinion makes sense. I disagree and believe that Custer was in charge up to LSH. However I admit I have never given much thought to it, and it does have merit. I would like to explore this possibility a little more. When and and at what location do you believe Custer was hit causing the Officers to take him to safety Be Well Dan
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 20, 2011 9:18:26 GMT -6
"Many a time he rode out of his way to appear where they didn't expect him to be." But did he send individuals to wave their hats at the Confederates from high points to call attention to the otherwise unexpected move? Who knows? Everyone seems to hang their hat upon those blasted sightings on the bluffs, sightings that mean absolutely nothing when it came to individual identification from that far away, far more true when one considers there were others dressed exactly the same way and no less riding the same colored horses. In any case, wasn't that sop, to make effort to surprise or confound an enemy? The ride em hard and surprise them where they weren't supposed to be was one of the reasons Custer advanced in rank so quickly, it wasn't sop. Sop was highly Napoleonic and less innovative which is why the Union had such a turnover in Generals who failed. I find it interesting that something like this, what Custer was noted for doing, is not taken into serious consideration here. Casting doubt upon Indian statements I can understand, and even casting doubt upon Martin's statements, I can understand and agree wholeheartedly with. And that's why I don't support those theories that send Custer over the edge of the bluffs, for all to see, and then down to attack at MTCF. It's because they base most if not all of their theory upon Martin's statements, they have to, to make sense of it. And nothing of what Martin stated makes any sense at all. 5 miles to Benteen from MTCF is where? Or. About 25 minutes from MTCF to Benteen is where?
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Post by rosebud on Aug 20, 2011 9:52:40 GMT -6
I fully understand the points Dark Cloud is trying to make. About 15 years ago, I would have been in his corner ranting and raving about Custer just had to go to MTCF it was the only thing to do. Anyone that disagreed was an idiot. Problem was, they kept shooting holes in that theory and only fantastic, far fetched movements, or even stupidity can explain how Custer ends up on last stand hill.
I was just as guilty of wanting Custer to go to MT CF. Just like Dark Cloud did with my first example of the football play. He decided it was going to be an interception because he wanted to prove a point. Just like many of the translators did with the Indian testimony. They make it fit with what they want.
Another example....Indians describe Soldiers coming off the hill by the thousands, chasing hundreds of Indians. Again describing Soldiers coming off a hill. Dark Cloud makes a suggestion that this (MIGHT) be Weir loaf hill. How convenient, this means he can still have them coming off a hill INTO MTC and going to the ford.
The Myth lives on. Healthy and going strong I might add. Fantastic troop movement and Officer stupidity will keep it alive for a long time. Even shot full of holes, it will live on and on.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 20, 2011 11:03:55 GMT -6
Rosebud, you misstate my opinions and the lessons of previous posts.
YOU stated a guy told a football tale to someone else who substituted, helpfully, the terms quarterback and receiver. I said the original description could just as easily been a described interception. I was not claiming it WAS an interception, only that we cannot now know and that errors, however well intended, crop up in Indian accounts since they travel through translators and others. That's why merely re-writing it to be more specific doesn't matter, nor is it any more truthful. We don't, and cannot, know. It's why we have to receive Indian accounts with cancerous gaze.
Like the contrary tales of Custer's wounds. I don't think the location of the wounds or their sequence matters, only that there are conflicting stories. I think it sounds like there was an agreed upon description that got fouled up by someone not in the loop. Same with the mountains of Calhoun shell casings.
In the same vein, while you try to pinpoint the descriptions of soldiers coming over a hill, I pointed out, as you say, there's no reason it could not reference Weir Point. Fits as well there as anywhere, given the observer was on the west bank of the LBH and the loaf was 30 feet higher. The terms thousands and hundreds are not used. But there is nothing in the description to definitely include or exclude anything.
I think Custer was going to the ford but got nowhere near it. I think it because no matter what he wanted to do - general attack, get the ponies, get the civvies, visit and take in metropolitan Hardin - it was the fastest way, especially through a village depleted of warriors. Going at a slower pace to a more northern ford in full view continues to make little sense, especially with less than half your men, which in aggregate aren't remotely enough anyway.
I don't think he'd attack except with all five companies; I think attack is a Custer trait; I think logic of cavalry attack is surprise and shock. Only MTC offered all that, or at least the best chance of it. Benteen could be counted upon to figure things out on arrival with the train. Indians always run, so worse case is we get to destroy the empty village and all their wares and the Sioux hit Terry without much munition or munchies. I have no proof, but visualizing being on a horse and what he might have been dealing with, I find the mental momentum pushes him forward automatically. It feels right, is all.
I've not seen the MTCF theory shot full of holes; only the contentions that he made it into the village or there was a large fight at the ford. There are Indian accounts and arguable evidence that a firing line was extended on the north bank of MTC, which doesn't wobble the theory of a delaying action to cover retreat.
There's been nothing to suggest Custer had no intention of heading down MTC to the ford, and some evidence to suggest he began that operation. It remains the most obvious choice.
Again: I do not think the division was intended, but that Keogh - uninformed and having to act in a gully - took his guys out, perhaps providing the trail that suggests Custer simply 'crossed' MTC. Two days after, I doubt the ground was NYT black and white clear even to the best and most experienced eyes.
Cavalry SOP in the CW on both sides was less Napoleonic than suggested. Officers on both sides did not charge entrenched troops - especially with artillery - and avoided unblooded infantry whenever possible. Buford, Stuart, Forrest, Mosby, Sheridan all were pretty much on the same page with Custer. I don't think his tactics factored into his advance in rank. That was due to winning. By 1863, Lincoln would have promoted Paul Lynde in a bright red mu-mu riding a narcoleptic tortoise if he won as much as Custer, and that by hitting the enemy where they absolutely expected the blow to fall and had months to prepare but fell asleep waiting. He win? He good.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 20, 2011 11:07:41 GMT -6
While looking for information of Gall's family killed early in the fight I ran across this.
Reunion 1886 Custer Myth page 93 Godfrey and Gall
Gall became satisfied that the interpreter was "padding" and I could see that Gall was quite restive. Finally, Gall, giving me a significant glance and toss of his head and quirt, got up, went to his horse and mounted. Waiting a moment, so as not to attract attention, as I could see he did not want the interpreter with us, my orderly and I mounted and followed Gall over to Calhoun's Knoll. Hmmmm interesting Gall silently surveyed the surroundings for a few moments , then pointed out the direction of Custer's approach, indicating now rapid and now slow march according to the ground; Doesn't sound like a buffalo chase yet. then the halt, the dismounting of a part and the forward movement of the other troops following. Then these latter made a rapid move to the right front toward Custer Hill.
Boy this gives no indication of a fight at the ford. Now if you look you might figure out that when he describes a rapid move to the RIGHT front toward Custer Hill.....It won't take long to realize they can't be coming from the ford....If so, the move to the right front would send them in the direction of Luce ridge, away from the river. Not to Last stand hill.
What are the chances of Godfrey being the one to follow Gall to Calhoun hill. Edgerley might have insisted on Gall going to the ford to start his story.....Godfrey already knows where Custer entered the Battlefield and Gall takes him to the same spot.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 20, 2011 11:20:16 GMT -6
Unfortunately, what the account was describing was an interception returned for a touchdown. And now this... I said the original description could just as easily been a described interception. I was not claiming it WAS an interceptionNeed I say more? I think your words can speak for them self. "I am more or less happy when being praised, not very comfortable when being abused, but I have moments of uneasiness when being explained."Now I can understand why
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 20, 2011 11:40:28 GMT -6
True. Should have said "what if the account was describing..." My error. But the point still stands.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 20, 2011 11:58:50 GMT -6
Now that, I would have agreed with. What is obvious to the Indian might not be obvious to the translator....Or even worse, purposely twisted to fit their view.
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Post by wild on Aug 20, 2011 13:24:39 GMT -6
Jag LSH is only a geographical feature, much like battle ridge or Calhoun or any other location thrown out there for discussion. We don't know what Custer's destination was, we don't even know what his plans were. It seemed to me that our friends Rosey and Cathal were describing the most secure and shortest way to get to LSH.[ If I have misunderstood then my apologies.]
How in the hell can anyone state something so absurd as to give a location and then proclaim that one theory is more correct than another because of force=pressure= a 3 star rating? Perhaps its just as insane as giving Custer his stars for much the same reason. Your equation is half right because the application of force does equal pressure and pressure will find weaknesses in any system. DC's theory of Custer being wounded matters not at all unless the command is under growing pressure.If the command is not under pressure then it can withdraw to battle ridge/LSH and go on the defensive. If however Custer is hit at the moment of an Indian counter attack ,the command and control system in that benighted regiment will malfunction resulting in the fragmntation as described by Cathal and DC.
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 20, 2011 13:49:17 GMT -6
Jag LSH is only a geographical feature, much like battle ridge or Calhoun or any other location thrown out there for discussion. We don't know what Custer's destination was, we don't even know what his plans were. It seemed to me that our friends Rosey and Cathal were describing the most secure and shortest way to get to LSH.[ If I have misunderstood then my apologies.] How in the hell can anyone state something so absurd as to give a location and then proclaim that one theory is more correct than another because of force=pressure= a 3 star rating? Perhaps its just as insane as giving Custer his stars for much the same reason.Your equation is half right because the application of force does equal pressure and pressure will find weaknesses in any system. DC's theory of Custer being wounded matters not at all unless the command is under growing pressure.If the command is not under pressure then it can withdraw to battle ridge/LSH and go on the defensive. If however Custer is hit at the moment of an Indian counter attack ,the command and control system in that benighted regiment will malfunction resulting in the fragmntation as described by Cathal and DC. If the 2nd in command was that damn ill prepared to take charge in the event his commander was incapacitated, for any reason, what does that tell anyone about the training those officers received? If the command and control was that damn flimsy, what the hell were they doing there? If it all relied totally upon that martinet Custer, and he gets his, which any combat vet knows full well could happen at any given time to any commander, and the 2nd in command doesn't know what to do, not even a clue as to what is going on or happening, they deserved their fate.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 20, 2011 13:54:37 GMT -6
We don't know what Custer's destination was, we don't even know what his plans were.
You might be partly right. However we can tell what some of his plans were not.
When he deploys Calhoun, an attack on the village is no longer in his plans. That is not to hard to figure out. We also should know that LSH is a destination. Why it is a destination might be a good question. Might be a destination just to see if there are any other options. The only thing we know for sure is that it was his last destination.
I can't see Custer wounded near the ford and ending up on last stand hill. Calhoun hill, maybe , last stand hill? Out of the question.
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 20, 2011 15:00:46 GMT -6
We don't know what Custer's destination was, we don't even know what his plans were. You might be partly right. However we can tell what some of his plans were not. No you can't, no one can, and that goes either way. When he deploys Calhoun... FIRST MISTAKE. And it's a big one. Who say's Custer deployed Calhoun anywhere at anytime? Who can say for sure that they were forced to where they fought and died and Custer had no say in where they ended up. This quote "drop off" business is another one of those pontificating prognostications that not one person can prove, not one. So I'm not giving Custer, Keogh or any other 2nd rate bozo who didn't know is butt from a hole in the ground credit for where they ended up except Calhoun. 2nd mistake. And no one can prove anything about where Custer was tactically headed, other than to the happy hunting grounds..
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Post by rosebud on Aug 20, 2011 15:24:46 GMT -6
Yes jag, you are so right. We don't even know Custer's plans once he left the Yellowstone, headed up the Rosebud. We can only follow the trail and guess.
So I guess we should all fold up the computers and do something else.
I am going to take a guess and say Calhoun just decided to stop on his own
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 20, 2011 15:43:00 GMT -6
Yes jag, you are so right. We don't even know Custer's plans once he left the Yellowstone, headed up the Rosebud. We can only follow the trail and guess. So I guess we should all fold up the computers and do something else. I am going to take a guess and say Calhoun just decided to stop on his own There is no need to guess. There is enough evidence to know that wherever they ended up they all went there. Oh I know those untrustworthy Indians and worse yet, those who interpreted for them. But that is where that evidence is corroborated by more than 1 Indian. The idea that Custer dropped off this or that company was never stated by any Indian, loyal to the whites or not. And it is only talked about one time when - when the notion of making a stand is being talked about. Was the pressure that caused this talk, at that time, upon their arrival there or at a later time?
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