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Post by benteen on Aug 19, 2011 9:23:02 GMT -6
Richard,I join the others in wishing you a very happy birthday, and many more of them in good health Colonel I know it was a typo.What you meant to say was you had a tiny bit left in your bottle of Jameson Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Aug 19, 2011 9:50:49 GMT -6
Dan: You place your immortal Roman soul in grave danger. I shall not backslide at this late date. I do however keep a bottle on hand for my some of my less enlightened friends or in case I was wrong and made a very bad decision.
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 19, 2011 10:10:31 GMT -6
Apparently not, yantaylor, because here you are replying when you allegedly don't have the time. OH Dark Cloud: Clair ( the Hussar) taught you well on the other board......That was vintage Clair.....well done. Keep up the well placed barbs. You are still not Clair's equal, but keep TRYING. It's OK for you to fail, but don't give up. You can pass Clair, I know you can. Yantaylor: People like the KY Hussar and Dark Cloud need to vent. Play with them and make them feel wanted. After all, they need friends too. RB Oh god you're not going to make us go through all that again are you? You should know by now DC copies no one and has no need to. On the other hand the same can't be said of the other. We are all here for the same purpose, the truth, and if DC holds someone's feet to the fire, even mine over something said, then it helps us determine what is true and what isn't. That isn't done at that other site , something I think to be thankful for.
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Post by benteen on Aug 19, 2011 10:21:05 GMT -6
Dan: You place your immortal Roman soul in grave danger. I shall not backslide at this late date. I do however keep a bottle on hand for my some of my less enlightened friends or in case I was wrong and made a very bad decision. LOL...Well done sir. As always a sound and knowledgeable Officer has a firm grip on a situation, and a good and reliable contingency plan in place Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Aug 19, 2011 11:12:17 GMT -6
I don't think anyone is mandated to agree with DC in all things. I do think it is wise to listen to what he says however. It can be a run over by a freight train experience, but listen none the less.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 19, 2011 11:47:45 GMT -6
The theory I hold has to do with momentum. A Custer, perhaps 'the' Custer, getting shot within MTC after they tighten their saddles but NOT at the ford or particularly near it. They pull up, cannot turn around within the coulee with others coming on. Someone throws out a firing line to cover the ascent of the wounded up what becomes Deep Coulee. I guess about where the north branch unites.
Keogh, not thrilled for reasons now being expressed to be slowed within the coulee, leads his guys out. If you have visualized the five within MTC and Cedar coulee, it's a long snake. Two parties - perhaps Yates and Keogh, perhaps just two parties - head north, in parallel, one well east of the other. Keogh's guys periodically provide covering fire and Keogh not entirely informed as to where they're going or why. In the square mile, they're met by increasing resistance and elements of the parties meet along battle ridge. At the monument, the leading riders blown off their wounded horses as they crest the hill, and that's the stand. Something. Neither original nor exciting.
I like it because it allows random conformity to the bodies, it accepts the officer coagulation, it is a Custer known to history, and it admits to the momentum of cavalry in duress. It doesn't demand that all elements did the same journey, allows for the march east of SSR but doesn't discount elements on the west, includes the case gardens on Luce and N-C.
It includes the use of MTCF by the Sioux big time. It isn't overly specific and allows variation and isn't determined to prove the implausible, the untrained for, and it conforms to the field. It also isn't really mine, but a variation on much older hypotheses, starting with Benteen's and others.
Bevo Boy was handed his ass so often over here (and those of you not familiar with how his stories, presentation, and image have changed over the years don't know; he started off on the other board much humbled and alert to his deficiencies in comparison) by several people, me among them. For a supposed military instructor he didn't seem to have any info not on the web available to all from the get go. He tried to impress and subsume with his alleged bio and experience and family and was pretty obnoxious about it, and deserved all the humiliating walk backs and collapses that I'd bet are still fun to read.
That posters have had conflicts with conz and me or others does not remotely unite conz and me and others: it generally means the poster has sufficient problems to have attracted incoming from such a wide variance.
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Post by wild on Aug 19, 2011 15:56:02 GMT -6
Dan,Cathal,Ian my thanks fo your good wishes. No greater love hath a man than he offer up his last drop of jemmy backwash for a comrade. Indeed yes Ian they still have bottles of German beer salvaged from the wreck on display in the pubs.
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Post by wild on Aug 19, 2011 16:12:47 GMT -6
If DC could tidy up Keogh's final position his theory is a serious contender for theory of the month.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 19, 2011 20:52:50 GMT -6
Mix-up at MTC
It all starts with the news that Custer and his men are dead. This news leads to having the men with Reno and Benteen going to the battlefield to identify, count and “burry” the dead. So how do the men get to the battlefield? Well, they go down to MTC, take a left and follow the trail to the ford. What they don’t know is they are following the trail of the Indians that have been shooting at them for two days. They make the assumption that this is probably the same way that Custer got to the battlefield. Now this is an easy mistake to make. Not really their fault. Even if one is to use a conservative number of 500 Indians, you would have them traveling on this path 4 times in those 2 days. That means there is probably over 2000 sets of horse tracks down Medicine Tail Coulee. Even If all of Custer’s men went down the coulee with 200 horses, their trail would be wiped out. So I can see where they can jump to the wrong conclusion.
Another problem is that the Indians now have approximately 100 to 130 new horses they are using and crossing MTC ford. So It is easy to see how they might think the soldiers might have tried to cross at MTC.
Godfrey is sent back to try and find Custer’s trail. He does, and has no problem tracing the rout they took. When they hit MTC, they go up the other side and head to Luce, Nye Cartwright ridge. Then off the hill to Calhoun hill. Well everyone has just come down MTC to the battlefield so that is what sticks in their mind. It sounds crazy to have Custer go all the way around when it is so easy to go the way they just came.
What they fail to understand is the Indians that were on the East side of the river. They don’t know that Custer’s men are having a small problem with these Indians. So the thing they do is dismiss every thing Godfrey has told them and decide that Custer must have come down MTC. It is the only logical thing to do.
We run into a problem decades after the battle when they start to find the shells on Luce and Blummer ridge…….OOOPS we have a problem. Godfrey was right after all.
Now I think if the military historians of 80 to 100 years ago would have had this information, there might not be quite as much confusion as there is today. Calhoun and Keogh would no longer be a big mystery. It would no longer look like a buffalo hunt. It would no longer look like Custer was running from MTC ford.
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 19, 2011 21:01:46 GMT -6
Mix-up at MTC It all starts with the news that Custer and his men are dead. This news leads to having the men with Reno and Benteen going to the battlefield to identify, count and “burry” the dead. So how do the men get to the battlefield? Well, they go down to MTC, take a left and follow the trail to the ford. What they don’t know is they are following the trail of the Indians that have been shooting at them for two days. They make the assumption that this is probably the same way that Custer got to the battlefield. Now this is an easy mistake to make. Not really their fault. Even if one is to use a conservative number of 500 Indians, you would have them traveling on this path 4 times in those 2 days. That means there is probably over 2000 sets of horse tracks down Medicine Tail Coulee. Even If all of Custer’s men went down the coulee with 200 horses, their trail would be wiped out. So I can see where they can jump to the wrong conclusion. Another problem is that the Indians now have approximately 100 to 130 new horses they are using and crossing MTC ford. So It is easy to see how they might think the soldiers might have tried to cross at MTC. Godfrey is sent back to try and find Custer’s trail. He does, and has no problem tracing the rout they took. When they hit MTC, they go up the other side and head to Luce, Nye Cartwright ridge. Then off the hill to Calhoun hill. Well everyone has just come down MTC to the battlefield so that is what sticks in their mind. It sounds crazy to have Custer go all the way around when it is so easy to go the way they just came. What they fail to understand is the Indians that were on the East side of the river. They don’t know that Custer’s men are having a small problem with these Indians. So the thing they do is dismiss every thing Godfrey has told them and decide that Custer must have come down MTC. It is the only logical thing to do. We run into a problem decades after the battle when they start to find the shells on Luce and Blummer ridge…….OOOPS we have a problem. Godfrey was right after all. Now I think if the military historians of 80 to 100 years ago would have had this information, there might not be quite as much confusion as there is today. Calhoun and Keogh would no longer be a big mystery. It would no longer look like a buffalo hunt. It would no longer look like Custer was running from MTC ford. Spot on bud. Now if you can get anyone to listen. They're so fascinated by MTCF and the death trap it was, that they can't see the finger before their noses when it comes to this. One man knew and wasn't about to go there, or for that matter send any of his other officers and men there, and he didn't, and that man was George A. Custer.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 19, 2011 22:46:45 GMT -6
As chance would have it I got Keogh on the other board to agree that there were to essentials to a flanking movement - timing and security of movement. We were talking about Chancellorsville, but that does not matter. The principle is the same no matter where.
From the perspective of the second of these principles - security - the Godfrey route is the best. Being able to conceal your movement by moving on the east side of the topographical crest of the E-L-N-C-B complex provides that degree of secuity or secrecy of movement. This route would take a little longer I would think, but the advantages it has far outweigh any disadvantage.
MTC is a death trap. Hostiles coming from the west over Weir Ridge and your snitzel. The same would be true if any force came from the east. Just can't see anyone choosing that route.
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Post by wild on Aug 20, 2011 0:11:07 GMT -6
Rosey It sounds crazy to have Custer go all the way around when it is so easy to go the way they just came. Cathal Being able to conceal your movement by moving on the east side of the topographical crest of the E-L-N-C-B complex provides that degree of secuity or secrecy of movement. This route would take a little longer I would think, but the advantages it has far outweigh any disadvantage
LSH was not Custer's destination.His arrival at LSH was determined by other factors besides logic or security. You have to supply a destination for our hero for these observations to hold good. If his arrival on Battle Ridge is not forced then Fred's theory is back on the table. And my best wishes to the old soldier.
Cathal Being able to conceal your movement by moving on the east side of the topographical crest of the E-L-N-C-B complex provides that degree of secuity or secrecy of movement. This route would take a little longer I would think, but the advantages it has far outweigh any disadvantage
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 20, 2011 6:03:08 GMT -6
Curly said they stopped in a coulee (assumed Cedar or Weir) to tighten saddles, something understandable preparatory to action, and not something he'd likely make up. He and Martin and Kanipe (eh...) don't really conflict much.
Again: how long would be the column - in twos or fours or combo of both - of five companies? Spaced out at the assumed speed for descending MTC? Or on the flats? It would be further spaced out than if on level ground with everyone at the exact same gait, and it would get longer. If Keogh's group is the last, what might he not know if the front engages in the coulee?
I'm pretty sure we've read that the vast mystery of Indians with army horses occurred to the 7th on the 27th, and that initial assumptions - reasonable all - fell away. I'm also pretty sure that Godfrey's story changed through the years (mutilations, etc.) and there was not unanimous agreement that all of Custer's men went to the east of Sharpshooter. It would be illogical, especially given the sightings by Reno and the Indians at various points.
I'd also like to call into question this whole biz about concealing one's self and 209 other men and horses at that point. Unless you think the Sioux have the IQ of a proton, you could assume if they see a rider in uniform or a guidon or two, which make cameos in these tales, or a white man or two signalling with his hat along the westernmost ridge, they might assume that something was up over there and check it out. Especially given the fact that they've generally ascertained intent from meeting Reno. Just a hunch.
Which is to say, I'm far from convinced that Gray or anyone's thoughts that the appearance of cavalry dust so near the village bears much relevance. I can understand some concern in Ash Creek, but not after Reno is engaged. At that point, speed and shock are called for if on offense, not dubious stealth and other time consuming stunts. Especially when you yourself have no clear idea how to hit the Indians at all yet beyond vague suggestions there is a crossing ahead somewhere downhill.
It makes no sense for Custer, if on offense, to not attack at MTC. If he had the notion that traveling north to go to ground with no cover and too far for support from anyone, there's nothing to be said. I think he tried and they were driven north.
In Bevo Boy Today! update:
bc on the other board has called him out on Indian accounts conz claims support him but somehow aren't actually in the books. This was sop for him, and his sop when caught is to change the subject and just ignore it and never admit error or lie, although there is tons of evidence for both through the years. Honor is real important to him, he says.
Will be fun to watch.
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jag
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Post by jag on Aug 20, 2011 6:52:27 GMT -6
The Godfrey route was exactly what Custer would have done during the Civil War. Many a time he rode out of his way to appear where they didn't expect him to be. It was one the the tactics he used that gave him a quick rise to stardom and... those stars on his collar.
LSH is only a geographical feature, much like battle ridge or Calhoun or any other location thrown out there for discussion. We don't know what Custer's destination was, we don't even know what his plans were. How in the hell can anyone state something so absurd as to give a location and then proclaim that one theory is more correct than another because of force=pressure= a 3 star rating? Perhaps its just as insane as giving Custer his stars for much the same reason.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 20, 2011 7:17:25 GMT -6
"Many a time he rode out of his way to appear where they didn't expect him to be." But did he send individuals to wave their hats at the Confederates from high points to call attention to the otherwise unexpected move?
In any case, wasn't that sop, to make effort to surprise or confound an enemy?
The thing is, whatever one's conclusions or inclinations as to Custer's plan, if any, there is ample evidence against them all. It's why I don't think Custer was in charge and that the mission of the officers about him was getting him to immediate safety. Would work if another family member was hurt and likely to fall into the hands of the Sioux if steps weren't taken.
That makes more sense to me than trying to apply some complicate but brilliant offensive plan involving continued division of already insufficient forces to what we sorta know happened.
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