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Post by fred on Jan 26, 2016 12:52:42 GMT -6
Just a little curious about how some of these junior officers made decisions to go chasing after Indians. I am finding out this was not restricted to the Washita. I am reading Neil Mangum's book, Battle of the Rosebud and it seems this was a rather common, euphoric habit. It happened several times at the Rosebud fight, until the officers realized they could chase Indians from one ridge to the next, all day. All it did was increase the distance between them and their support, and with the Indian ponies a lot faster overall, you can see where this might lead. I would assume when the warriors felt that distance was great enough, they would no longer be the pursued. Interesting stuff. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by jodak on Jan 26, 2016 13:42:16 GMT -6
".... I believe folks who have not served in the military do not understand command. Command matters more than rank. Company commanders are peers,, equals. AT LBH we have company commanders in grades O1 to O3, second lieutenant to Captain. Too much is made of rank, or date of rank to determine authority between peers."
That is what I have always contended in regard to Reno and Benteen as "battalion" commanders. Although not standing organizations, once assigned to command their respective battalions by Custer, my contention is that the two were, as you say, basically "peers". We have debated this numerous times, and many always fall back onto the fact that Reno was a major, while Benteen was only a captain, and, as such, argue that Benteen automatically fell under Reno's command when they met on the bluffs. I'm not so sure, and, while I agree that Reno could have ordered Benteen to join him if he had elected to, it seems as if he was disinclined to do so and viewed Benteen as more or less an equal until such time as Benteen voluntarily placed himself under Reno's command. I've also always argued that the fact that Reno was the designated regimental second in command, or executive officer if you will, carried far more weight vis-à-vis Benteen than did the disparity in ranks.
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Post by jodak on Jan 26, 2016 14:13:30 GMT -6
montrose: I'm not quite sure what you are saying. Was it OK for Elliott et al to make decisions on their own without orders from a commanding officer? One of the biggest bugaboos was Terry's orders to Custer and giving him leeway to do as he saw fit. Was that SOP for junior officers to make decisions as well? If so we saw the disasters and loss of life to many soldiers because of a junior officer who may not have had much experience fighting Indians . . . an officer who feels "a brevit or a coffin" is not someone I want to follow! I tend to cut Elliot a little more slack than it seems do most. To begin with I would not count him as a "junior officer" making decisions without orders from his commanding officer. Rather, he was serving as a battalion commander and, as regimental second in command, it seems that he was exercising operational control in the village while Custer was exercising overall command from a hilltop some distance away. As such, when he saw escaping Indians, a situation that he felt warranted immediate attention, it was well within his prerogative, in fact his duty, to take the actions that he felt necessary. In addition, I suspect that we may focus too much attention on and read too much into his "brevet or a coffin" comment. It seems as if it is generally interpreted as some sort of reckless bravado, but, when taken in context, it seems likely that it was just a good natured gibe shouted out to a fellow officer and friend (Lt. Hale I believe) while passing him and was intended along the lines of "I know I am taking a risk here, but, what the hell, it needs to be done."
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Post by edavids on Jan 26, 2016 14:27:40 GMT -6
Great question but my guess is that Reno did have the right to stop Benteen and take accountability for the action. Wild will disagree with me as is his right to. I still question Reno's action in leaving Benteen holding the bag and running off to find Hodgson. Pack train was still en route so perhaps did not delay organizing the command and moving toward Custer but still an irresponsible act given that Reno himself went instead of sending a small detachment.
Btw-caught myself in an inaccuracy; Elliott was my Aunt's great great uncle not grandfather. Still distant family :-)
Final thought on Elliott; wasn't he 2nd in command at Washita? His action was foolish but if accurate on his status makes for fun speculation that if he had used restraint at Washita how he might have fared leading the valley charge at LBH. Best,
David
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Post by edavids on Jan 26, 2016 14:32:59 GMT -6
Looks like I posted a split second after Jodak. So it looks like Elliott was 2nd in command. Agree with comment anout him not being a Jr Officer.
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Post by montrose on Jan 26, 2016 18:12:24 GMT -6
montrose: I'm not quite sure what you are saying. Was it OK for Elliott et al to make decisions on their own without orders from a commanding officer? One of the biggest bugaboos was Terry's orders to Custer and giving him leeway to do as he saw fit. Was that SOP for junior officers to make decisions as well? If so we saw the disasters and loss of life to many soldiers because of a junior officer who may not have had much experience fighting Indians . . . an officer who feels "a brevit or a coffin" is not someone I want to follow! I was referring to company commanders, who are all company grade officers. That means second lieutenant to Captain. Field grade officers are Major to Colonel. A field grade officer does have authority over company grade officers. But this authority is stronger when that officer is in command, meaning regiment or brigade commander. The battalion as we know it today did not exist. For this era, a battalion is a temporary organization of two or more companies to perform a specified task. It was common for companies from different regiments and different services to be placed in the same battalion. Today we would call these entities detachments or task forces. So now we have an officer in charge of a task force for an hour, trying to assert authority over a company commander who has been in place for 5 or more years. Good luck with that. Weir's arrogant and disobedient behavior is not unusual in these situations.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 29, 2016 15:30:08 GMT -6
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Post by montrose on Apr 10, 2017 6:20:46 GMT -6
I received a query on this thread from 2011. The first three pages of this thread are relevant to current discussions.
Respectfully,
William
By the way, DC was a very good writer, I wish I had his skill with words.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 11, 2017 5:40:06 GMT -6
By the way, DC was a very good writer, I wish I had his skill with words. Yes I agree, he did have some choice words in his vocabulary.
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