Famous Last Words?

[Dark Cloud]

I'm feeling better about the theory, for which blaque is due thanks. I like it because it removes the melodramatic, makes sense, has plausibility, and retains characterizations known to history.

Still issues regarding Custer and Reno's pace down Reno/Ash Creek. If only 15-20 minutes ahead, they couldn't have been galloping or even at a fast trot for a majority of the distance, I don't think. But again, if 'arrives' refers to the first rider, and Benteen on his fast horse is the first rider, than yeah, maybe.

[bc]

Jose, could it be that Boston had a horse problem before Thompson and Watson did? With Boston riding back from that general area to the pack train?

Are you also saying that it was Reno who ordered French who then ordered Ryan and his ten skirmishers out from the separation point? Basically saying that Ryan had the advance to ford A?

bc

[blaque]

Feb 22, 2011 13:41:50 GMT -6 Dark Cloud said:

I'm feeling better about the theory, for which blaque is due thanks. I like it because it removes the melodramatic, makes sense, has plausibility, and retains characterizations known to history.
Still issues regarding Custer and Reno's pace down Reno/Ash Creek. If only 15-20 minutes ahead, they couldn't have been galloping or even at a fast trot for a majority of the distance, I don't think. But again, if 'arrives' refers to the first rider, and Benteen on his fast horse is the first rider, than yeah, maybe.

DC,

I’ve not made up my mind yet about the course of events at the LBH, or about the pace taken by the different columns down Reno Creek; but I agree with you that the proposed explanation of the Boston ride sounds convincing for his simplicity. I’ve not tried to develop a time-line for LBH events, however, and Darling may be wrong with his. I mean that perhaps this theory might prove impossible.

Jose

[blaque]

Feb 22, 2011 18:10:06 GMT -6 bc said:

Jose, could it be that Boston had a horse problem before Thompson and Watson did? With Boston riding back from that general area to the pack train?
bc

bc,

Trooper Kipp of D Co. told Camp that the coming of Boston to the rear was to deliver an order. Cooke & Hodgson are reported to have been galloping up and down the column, instructing the companies not to raise dust, and perhaps Boston was lending them a hand –that would be a likely explanation for his trip to the packs. Another one would be that he went back to exchange mounts; but not because the one he was riding was tired, but to leave it safely with the rearguard, since it was Sadie, the cherished pony of his sister-in-law Libbie –perhaps he did so by Custer’s own suggestion.

Jose

[blaque]

Feb 22, 2011 18:10:06 GMT -6 bc said:

Are you also saying that it was Reno who ordered French who then ordered Ryan and his ten skirmishers out from the separation point? Basically saying that Ryan had the advance to ford A?
bc

bc,

I recently discussed this point with Fred, and submitted to him the following information:

French detached an advance party TWICE during Reno’s march upon the village. The first one was at the Lone Tepee. As Hare testified, Custer ordered him to go ahead with his scouts, the latter refused, and then Custer told Cooke that Reno’s battalion should go ahead instead of the scouts. Well, the men who actually preceded Reno’s march in place of the scouts were Sgts. White and O’Hara with Cpl. Scollin and 7 troopers: Newell, J. Meier, Thorpe, Galenne, Braun, Gordon and Turley. White, however, considered himself under the orders of Lt. Hare, who accompanied the party (no doubt ashamed of his scouts, and being followed by his orderly, Pvt. Clear). Shortly before reaching the crossing, and after being ineffectively fired upon by a few Indians hidden among the bushes of Reno Creek, well out of range,  they were ordered to rejoin the company and crossed the river with the battalion, while Hare did the same with Varnum and the scouts, replacing White’s party at the van. White, Newell and Morris left an account of this, including the “parting shots” of the small bunch of Indians retreating down Reno Creek and across the LBH.

After the battalion got across the river and beyond the belt of timber, and it was ready to start out towards the village, French detached Ryan and 10 troopers (15 men, according to White) to cover the right flank of the battalion, lest hostiles were lurking in the heavy underbrush along the river bank. Here I think Bruce Liddic is mistaken, since he assumes that Reno was keeping detached both this flank guard and the previous advance party acting as vedettes well to the front. After Ryan, White and Newell we know this is not true –the original advance party (probably increased to 15 men) had turned into a flank guard. This makes sense, since it’s well known that Varnum and the scouts catched up with the column before crossing the river, so that since that moment they were ready to recon the terrain in advance of the battalion. This is just what Varnum wrote in one of his accounts: “We rode to overtake Reno, which we did as he was fording the stream, and came out into the open valley ahead and covered the advance with my scouts”. On the other hand, it’s possible that Liddic was right. Ryan always told that his flank guard was 10 men strong, while White was sure that 15 men were detached from the company; but the latter also told that "one of the drunken officers" ordered him to diverge from Ryan (without identifying the officer or the kind of order), so perhaps White with four troopers were Liddic’s vedettes to the front.

It was after the battalion started to move rapidly down the valley, with Varnum & Hare to the left and front, and Ryan’s party to the right and a little in advance (Galenne protesting and asking to slow down, since they had not being told to gallop), when a few horses bolted towards the Indians: I think three M troopers from the battalion –Rutten, Smith & W. Meyer–, and one from Ryan’s party, Pvt. Turley. As recalled by Slaper and others riding like him with the battalion, “our horses were scenting danger before we dismounted, and several at this point became unmanegable and started straight for the open among the Indians, carrying their helpless riders with them”.

As per Ryan’s account, when they were approaching the point of timber they sighted ahead a few Indians close to the river bank, who retreated northwards skirting the timber towards the village; this is born out by Newell, who says that after finding Indians in front they slowed down and waited for the battalion to come parallel to their side, at which moment they were ordered to rejoin the command’s right flank, riding for a short distance with the battalion till it was ordered to halt.

And now Morris enters in scene. The battalion is halted and consolidated, all the men are on foot, and number 4’s are holding the horses back of the line.  At this point of his long narrative to R. Bruce, Morris says that “Major Reno directed Captain French to send ten men from the right of his troop to skirmish the woods –to avoid ambush– before directing the number 4’s to proceed with the led horses to cover. I was one of the ten men so detailed. First Sgt. Ryan, in charge of the detail, gave the command —Double time! when we were close to the wood, and then —As skirmishers, march! We entered the woods, skirmished them to the river, saw no Indians in the woods and immediately returned. When First Sgt. Ryan signalled Major Reno —All right, no Indians in the woods!, number 4’s were then directed to take the horses into the woods, and we –detail– rejoined the troop”.

May be this operation caused the other two dismounted companies to gain some ground on M, momentarily left behind perhaps to protect the horse holders, still in the open, and to support Ryan’s scouting party in case of need. Once the horses were secured in the timber and Ryan’s party rejoined the company, French advanced towards the foothills to check the many Indians starting to mass there to outflank the battalion. This would be a likely explanation to the puzzling fact that M were to the right during the advance, but to the left during the fight; and would explain also Ryan’s insistence to Camp that Reno had two different skirmish lines during the action at the valley. 

If Morris is right (and I have no reason to distrust him since nothing in particular happened in that dismounted recon) Ryan actually carried two different missions during the advance. First, to secure the right flank of the battalion after crossing the river and until it halted and deployed. Second, to secure a safe place for the led horses in the timber with a detail of troopers, carrying out the task on foot due to the thickness of the timbered area, so well described by Varnum and others. Besides this, and according to White and Newell, it also befell to M company the task of replacing the reluctant Indian scouts with an advance party ahead of Reno’s battalion,  clearing the way from the LT to near Ford A.

Jose

[AZ Ranger]

Darling may be wrong with his. I mean that perhaps this theory might prove impossible.

Jose

Darling takes a flat rate of speed for each of the groups with Custer fastest, Benteen next, and the pack train slowest. Darling's speed I believe comes from Gray using the 4 mph walk and then has Custer slightly faster, Benteen slower and the pack train even slower. Since he states it is his best guess and assumes that Gray is correct that Custer walked down Reno Creek then the rest is solely based upon Custer walking.

If you speed Custer up then Benteen speeds up and the pack train lead animals also speed up. If the lead pack animals travel faster then one would need to see if the pack train is spread out. There are accounts of the pack train being spread out over miles and the last packs arriving a hour later.

Our officers that have mules have no trouble with keeping up with horses and the longer the distance the more likely the mules are in the lead.

Steve

[fred]

Steve,

I am sure Darling used Gray's times, at least in a modified form. I have a large file I cannot open that makes the comparisons... how can I open that damn thing?

Anyway, the Darling book pre-dates Gray: 1987 versus 1991, but the edition I have is dated 2000, which means Darling probably upped the ante and based his times on Gray. Doesn't everyone?

Here is something I have put together that I think rather interesting. I would like your opinion, here or privately:

"A more realistic assessment of speeds can be found on the “modern-day” Website of Ultimatehorsesite.com, an outfit located in Corvallis, Oregon. Paraphrased, we read,

'… horses speed varies with their stride length, body build, and other factors, but here is a basic idea of how fast—in miles per hour—horses move at their various gaits: at a walk, roughly three to four MPH. A pleasure show horse can go as slow as two MPH. Gaited horses—that do not trot—can do a “running walk” as fast as fifteen MPH. The trot is roughly eight – ten MPH. Again, a shorter striding horse could trot slower, and a horse with a long stride could move faster. A canter/lope can be clocked at ten – seventeen MPH. A gallop depends on the horse’s condition and athletic ability. Some horses are not built to run fast and may only do a fast canter at their best; however, the gallop is about thirty MPH. Thoroughbreds, which are bred for running distance but not speed, have been clocked at over forty MPH. Quarter horses, bred and raced for short distances at speed, can reach fifty MPH in short bursts according to the AQHA’s website.'"

Best wishes,
Fred.

[eamonn]

Brilliant Fred, quick response, I will order the book online. Nice to c that u r still an avid forum user and still around making a contribution

Eamonn ;D

[fred]

Eamonn,

You flatter me and are too kind certainly. But I thank you; I do hope you order it... but more importantly, if you do, I hope to heaven you enjoy it. I tell people it is a "fun" book, and I really believe that. There is so much in it that is open to speculation and discussion... and at the same time, there is so much that is drawn from so many other sources and put together as it has never been done before, that it really makes it so informative. That is why it was so much fun to do. (Plus, I think it is easy to refer to or read.)

Best wishes,
Fred.

[blaque]

Returning to the original topic of this thread, I’ve found the recollections of a participant who actually heard Custer pronounce the famous American-continent phrase, just before he and Reno separated: Pvt. Edwin Pickard, of F Troop. Unfortunately he deserves very little credit –or perhaps and to be fair with an old veteran, I should say that his editor, Fred Lockley, deserves scant credit, since he completely changed the gist of Pickard’s story, making it almost unrecognizable when compared with the account Trooper Pickard wrote to his family on 1876. It’s impossible, therefore, to know whether Pickard did actually hear Custer’s words, or it’s just an embellishment added by Lockley, aware that the sentence was a “well established fact”.

Anyway here comes the quote, for the record:

“In my capacity as orderly I was thus within hearing distance of much of the conversation that took place between Custer and the others, as I was riding just ahead of F Troop. When Bouyer came back and reported to General Custer […] Custer said: There are not too many Indians on the American continent for me to attack with the 7th Cavalry. Turning to the other officers Custer said: From what the scouts tell me, the largest Indian camp on the North American continent is just ahead of us, and we are going to attack it”. (‘I rode with Custer’, in Montana Magazine of Western History, Summer 1954. First published in 1912).

In any case, the quote as given by Pickard/Lockley is more credible than the original one as told by the Far West officer at Bismarck (either Capt. Smith of Terry’s staff, or Carland or Baker of the 6th Inf.), because Custer would have addressed it to his officers after passing the abandoned village site, while giving orders to move against the many hostiles just located in the valley as reported by Varnum, and without any waving or cheering.

Jose

[Dark Cloud]

This is why I think first appearence is an important issue. "From what the scouts tell me, the largest Indian camp on the North American continent...." does not ring true, but maybe. Suspect it crept in the tale at some point. I don't think the Sioux wars inspired continental considerations.

But, could be true.

[eamonn]

Hi Fred

Haven't been reading as much as I would like to. Bought a book last year in Rapid City although I cant remember the name but pretty expensive though. It was archeology at LBH but too heavy for me, I have tried reading it 3 times without success. Also, despite the number of times I have been to Pine Ridge and the number of book stores they never seem to vary their collections!

Eamonn

[AZ Ranger]

Feb 23, 2011 8:43:45 GMT -6 fred said:

Steve,

I am sure Darling used Gray's times, at least in a modified form. I have a large file I cannot open that makes the comparisons... how can I open that damn thing?

Anyway, the Darling book pre-dates Gray: 1987 versus 1991, but the edition I have is dated 2000, which means Darling probably upped the ante and based his times on Gray. Doesn't everyone?

Here is something I have put together that I think rather interesting. I would like your opinion, here or privately:

"A more realistic assessment of speeds can be found on the “modern-day” Website of Ultimatehorsesite.com, an outfit located in Corvallis, Oregon. Paraphrased, we read,

'… horses speed varies with their stride length, body build, and other factors, but here is a basic idea of how fast—in miles per hour—horses move at their various gaits: at a walk, roughly three to four MPH. A pleasure show horse can go as slow as two MPH. Gaited horses—that do not trot—can do a “running walk” as fast as fifteen MPH. The trot is roughly eight – ten MPH. Again, a shorter striding horse could trot slower, and a horse with a long stride could move faster. A canter/lope can be clocked at ten – seventeen MPH. A gallop depends on the horse’s condition and athletic ability. Some horses are not built to run fast and may only do a fast canter at their best; however, the gallop is about thirty MPH. Thoroughbreds, which are bred for running distance but not speed, have been clocked at over forty MPH. Quarter horses, bred and raced for short distances at speed, can reach fifty MPH in short bursts according to the AQHA’s website.'"

Best wishes,
Fred.

Darling cites Gray, Campaign, 178

I believe it predates Darling and it looks it may be 1976(Fort Collins, CO: Old Army Press, 1976) for hardbound and 1988 for soft cover of Centennial Campaign. On page 302-302 of the soft cover edition that I have Gray has a table "Four Column Chronology" listing clock, miles, min, mph and cum miles.

As far as the horse gaits and speeds that website is familiar. The speeds are for individual animals but are average and not the top speed as in record setting speed so a formation should be able to travel at the average rates of speed within the gaits. There is a reason why the cavalry had terms such as a slow trot, trot, fast trot, and extended trot in their vocabulary. The were a range of speeds within a gait.

We do not need to get into the speeds of a march under traveling conditions which is what I believed Gray used. Those speeds allow for breaks, horses to improve in condition, time to set up camp, time for horses to graze before sunset and so forth.
These rates of speeds were constant and applied over a 8-9 period most every day.

Steve

[fred]

Feb 25, 2011 7:14:29 GMT -6 eamonn said:

Bought a book last year in Rapid City although I cant remember the name but pretty expensive though. It was archeology at LBH but too heavy for me, I have tried reading it 3 times without success.

Eamonn, good morning!

When you get a chance, I would like to know the name of that book.

Richard Fox and Doug Scott collaborated on two, Archaeological Insights... and Archaeological Perspectives.... Fox then wrote his own, which-- I believe, other than articles for the CBHMA Symposium-- may be the last thing he has written. And certainly in "book" form.

Perspectives is more comprehensive than Insights, but the latter contains a schematic map of the markers that I have found invaluable.

Best wishes,
Fred.