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Post by Rabble on Jan 25, 2009 22:13:06 GMT -6
From the Official Records of the Civil War FORT WALLA WALLA, February 14, 1861. SIR: I have the honor to report that, in obedience to instructions, I left this post February 9, 1861, with Company E, First Dragoons, and proceeded to the Columbia River, encamping near the place where the Indians of whom I was in pursuit had been last seen. Immediately upon my arrival I sent out scouts to discover, if possible, any clue which would enable me to capture them. About 9 o'clock that night I received information that they were some miles below my camp on the river. I started with a small party and, proceeding rapidly, succeeded in surprising their camp. I found but two of the Indians who had been committing depredations in that vicinity. After a short but severe struggle, in which but my first sergeant, Private Moran, and myself were engaged for a short time, I succeeded in securing them and bringing them to my camp. They were immediately recognized as desperate characters, having been punished in the guard-house and whipped by Colonel Wright. Early next morning and in presence of the whole tribe with whom they had been living I had them hung, telling their tribe at the same time that any future harboring of such murderers and thieves would be interpreted as hostility to the whites, and punished accordingly. I have particularly to recommend the zeal and activity of Lieutenant Kellogg, First Sergt. Daniel Coleman, and Private Moran, of Company E, First Dragoons. I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant, M. A. RENO, Second Lieutenant, First Dragoons, Commanding Troop E. Lieut. J. WHEELER, JR., Adjutant, Fort Walla Walla, Wash. Ter. Ron
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Post by bc on Jan 26, 2009 9:26:11 GMT -6
Sounds pretty hard core to me. No Mercy. No trial/court of inquiry. Rather callous. I've read of other accounts where accused NAs were required to be turned over to authorities and then hung. The NAs showed how hard core they can be 1876.
On the other hand, Fort Walla Walla and the Columbia River area is home to the Hoh Indians. Maybe Reno, Coleman, and Moran became engaged in a little hanky panky with a couple of Hohs.
bc
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 26, 2009 10:51:57 GMT -6
Just recall that Reno and Benteen had been militarily dealing with Indians - insofar as/if experience with one tribe helps with others - well before Custer ever did.
If this had been Custer, the trumpeting about his law and order credentials and gung ho attitude and no nonsense, he-man approach would be cause for hushed awe and regard. 'Tough, but fair' etc. Since it's Reno, it's "callous."
It was callous. But my long term point is that Reno and Benteen are not ever considered by the same standards applied to Custer, even when they do very near the same thing in similar situations. This reaches to where Reno is damned for not employing the retreat tactics that didn't work for Custer at LBH.
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Post by stevewilk on Jan 26, 2009 11:21:46 GMT -6
While Reno had experience "militarily" dealing with Indians pre-Civil War, Benteen's first engagement occurred in August of 1868 at Saline Creek, Kansas. A full year and some after Custer. Unless his Missouri regiment was dealing with the Osage or other tribes during the war he had no pre Custer Indian experience, as he sat out the Hancock campaign while Custer was getting his feet wet.
Reno, as a dragoon Lt. came upon the aftermath of the Utter-Van Ornum wagon train massacre in 1860. The image of the mutilated corpses must have been ingrained upon him and perhaps came back to him in the timber on June 25.
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Post by bc on Jan 26, 2009 11:34:04 GMT -6
This thread is about Reno and not a comparison with others. No doubt Custer was more callous than anybody against NAs and his own soldiers but part of the times also. Not sure I've ever heard anything about Benteen that would suggest any callousness. I never said that Reno being callous is bad either. This thread is the first instance I've seen anything in that regard towards Reno.
Compare the civil war to today, everybody from Lincoln on down would be in Leavenworth for all the human life that was wasted in battle during the cw. 50,000 casualties a battle doesn't matter if you end up with a huge statue in a memorial down at the end of the mall. Lot of callousness to go around. Just a sign of the times. If there was any real callousness, it was what the American troops dealt with during wars and conflicts in the western pacific area during the 20th century starting with Nanking. Not a good place to be taken prisoner.
bc
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Post by Melani on Jan 26, 2009 11:37:59 GMT -6
Reno's orders in the above situation were "...should any of the guilty be captured, instant and summary punishment is to be had upon them, that their fate may be a warning to others." They were Snakes, not Hohs. Prior to the CW, Benteen was working as a sign painter in St. Louis--he was a rather talented artist. Perhaps some of his problems with Custer stemmed from the fact that he was not a West Pointer, but was still a very competent soldier.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 26, 2009 11:56:04 GMT -6
Custer was no more callous than anyone else.
Benteen says he fought Indians in 63 and 64, apparently while in the Missouri cavalry. Page 201 Custer Myth. If not true, I stand corrected, but I recall a thread about this in the past. Markland knows, I think.
Even if my claim is correct, it isn't important beyond another chink in the Custerphile presentation that Reno and Benteen weren't the experienced Indian fighters Custer was. This is implied - it is here again - to encourage the view that Reno fell apart because of the fear he supposedly succumbed to at LBH from never having fought the Indians, with their yells and banshee screams, etc.
That may be entirely true, of course, but since he did have experience (nobody there had much, truth to tell, outside the scouts) and he was a brevet general, and an entirely logical set of reasons can be offered for what he did and when on the retreat, he ought to be granted a break till proven otherwise.
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Post by conz on Jan 26, 2009 11:56:41 GMT -6
Reno's orders in the above situation were "...should any of the guilty be captured, instant and summary punishment is to be had upon them, that their fate may be a warning to others." They were Snakes, not Hohs. Prior to the CW, Benteen was working as a sign painter in St. Louis--he was a rather talented artist. Perhaps some of his problems with Custer stemmed from the fact that he was not a West Pointer, but was still a very competent soldier. I would probably put it the other way, that part of his problems with Custer was that Custer WAS a West Pointer. Benteen has a real chip on his shoulder, it seems, against West Pointers. Not unlike DC, I might add! <BG> Clair
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 26, 2009 12:14:37 GMT -6
Again, you do not stand for the Army or West Point, and people laughing at you and your posts cannot be intepreted as dishonoring either. Just you. You, alone. A wannabe hussar of one. Solamente. Do not imply my disdain extends any further than that.
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Post by Melani on Jan 26, 2009 12:27:22 GMT -6
Custer's Thorn goes into quite a bit of detail about Benteen's CW experiences, and there is no mention of Indian fighting, not even Stand Watie's Cherokees. He does seem to have spent a lot of time hacking away at Forrest.
Custer was no more an experienced Indian fighter than Benteen; Reno was the only one of the three who could claim that experience. Reno certainly lost it for some reason at LBH, but I doubt it was due to howling and scary warpaint. The fact that he had a perfectly good record up until that moment makes it hard to understand; we are getting into all sorts of psychology of men in war here. Reno had had a lot of unpleasant experiences in his life in the past couple of years, with the death of his wife being the worst. By all accounts she was pleasant and well-liked, and probably did a lot to keep Reno civilized. He doesn't seem to have had any close friends in the regiment. And he was drinking a lot. I think it was more likely the tactical situation, combined with whatever his mental state was that caused him to lose it--it was pretty dicey, and no matter who was in charge, they would have been in deep do-do. I just don't think the "charge to the rear" worked very well.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 26, 2009 14:56:17 GMT -6
Well, it worked in the main. It seems to have done better than Custer's supposed retreat by covering fire or whatever the new presentations are today. It changes more than the Boulder weather but less than the size of the village, which inflates and deflates at the need of those "studying" the battle.
And, yet again, if anyone would care to show how Reno's retreat could work 'better', by which is meant with less casualty of men and mounts than Reno ended up with, show it on the maps Reno didn't have. Make sure you do so balancing what he knew or could reasonably expect at the time. If stops for covering fire are part of your scenario, show how and where and estimate loss, if any, at each point, whether you stand about any wounded or take them or leave them, and time it all out. Have fun.
That nobody - nobody - has done this except in the most airy fashion - is tribute to the issues Reno faced. Sometimes bolting en masse - charge or not - worked. Surprise and speed are cavalry's friend. Dismounting and performing linear lines of fire in an amorphous world of combat are not. So I'm told, anyway.
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Post by Melani on Jan 26, 2009 16:24:17 GMT -6
Just for starters, he could have made sure his orders were properly communicated to everyone, and that the retreat took place in some kind of formation, instead of a panicked mob.
Why don't you take one of those scenarios, dc, and show exactly what you think would have happened, using the same criteria?
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Post by bc on Jan 26, 2009 16:34:35 GMT -6
Whatever happened to Reno's kids when his wife died? Kinda remember seeing some kids on the 1870 census at Camp Sturgis, KS.
Hang in there Princess Melanie. The force is with you. You've got to save the galaxy. Don't succumb!!
(ol) b(en) c(anobi)
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 26, 2009 17:40:14 GMT -6
There's testimony people were aware of the coming charge and were mounted or getting mounted. Ryan, among others, said this. Once mounted and providing high targets and small return fire, how long should Reno wait till everyone is organized? For all the complaints about being 'disorganized' - something that happens in battle, I'm told - the majority of men seem to have known what was happening and got out. A plurality did not or chose not to. Surprise and speed.
That's not to say it wasn't a mess, but what you're suggesting doesn't really indicate less casualties. Sitting still on the horses, they'd be in the sights longer, and more Sioux could be gathered to meet them at exit. It's for that reason I don't think any of Custer's troopers intentionally ran along the LBH downriver for another crossing point up north, having totally lost surprise and insufficient speed, men, and point to a later crossing.
Didn't Reno only have one kid, who married a Nashvillian?
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Post by Melani on Jan 26, 2009 20:48:14 GMT -6
Reno had one son, Ross, who was 10 when his mom died. She had gone back East to take care of her dying mother, and then her own health went bad, probably a kidney ailment. She was living with her brother in Pennsylvania when she died, and Ross stayed with his aunt and uncle. Reno started East at once when he was informed, applying for leave on the fly, but was stopped at Ft. Benton by Terry's refusal, and had to return to his command. Mary Hannah's family apparently didn't understand this and never forgave him for not coming at once.
If Reno had gone East, Weir would have been left in command, as Keogh was on leave in Ireland, and I guess Terry didn't think much of that option. Reno finally managed to get back East about two months later, and took Ross on a trip to Europe. When they got back, he had a cousin appointed as Ross's guardian, left him, and went back to Dakota.
Ross didn't do that great, getting in a fair amount of trouble as a young man that also involved drinking and bothering young ladies--chip off the old block, you might say. He did indeed marry a Nashvillian, Ittie Kinney, the daughter of the guy he was working for as a whiskey salesman. His father did not attend the wedding. They separated after eight years, and were eventually divorced, apparently as a result of what Ross described as his "very convivial habits." Ross then vanished from the public record, and may have gone to the Klondike Gold Rush.
Mary Hannah's family wouldn't allow Reno to be buried with her in the family plot, so he was in an unmarked grave in Washington until moved to LBH. I nearly fell over when I saw his stone there--I hadn't known he was there. But there really isn't anywhere else for him to be--dysfunctional or not, he's part of the regimental family.
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