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Post by clw on Aug 24, 2008 9:44:25 GMT -6
Hilarious, Claire! I learned quickly to wake Don up by throwing pillows at him from across the room.
Target aquisition, target IDENTIFICATION. Pounded into my head, over and over and over.....
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Post by clw on Aug 24, 2008 12:31:25 GMT -6
I've kept my mouth shut about glory. I tend to do that when the conversation is about things I haven't experienced -- like combat. But I have been thinking about it a lot. And couple of things mentioned here reminded me so much of my husband, I've been thinking about him all day. My credentials are a husband and a brother-in-law who were SF. My husband's gone and my brother-in-law just returned from Basra. He's 55 and had no obligation to go active. These guys are really not human, you know -- it's a whole different species -- so maybe this would not apply to other branches of service. But the SF Creed ends with "My goal is to succeed in any mission and live to succeed again". The concept of glory (a very personal thing) is not even on their radar. They focus, like a heat seeking missile, on a far higher plain. And that's what I think about that.
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tatanka
Full Member
Live for today like there was no tomorrow
Posts: 125
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Post by tatanka on Aug 24, 2008 13:27:56 GMT -6
clw. We all hope your husband stays safe.
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Post by clw on Aug 24, 2008 13:46:05 GMT -6
No husband, tatanka. I should have worded that better. But we can hope they ALL stay safe.
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Post by conz on Aug 24, 2008 18:24:33 GMT -6
But the SF Creed ends with "My goal is to succeed in any mission and live to succeed again". The concept of glory (a very personal thing) is not even on their radar. They focus, like a heat seeking missile, on a far higher plain. And that's what I think about that. Trouble is, clw, that IS what the military considers to be "glory." If you do your job well, you gain glory in the service, amongst your peers. We respect that, and those that perform such service, as embarrassed about the attention they might get as a result, have to live with our respect and glorification. They don't care about what I think of them, but =I= care. And that is all that matters. Thank God we have so many like that "species." <g> Clair
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Post by clw on Aug 25, 2008 8:10:31 GMT -6
I understand. But by throwing the word 'glory' around, you demean them and frankly, bring them down to your level. THAT bothers me. Whatever branch they serve in, accomplishment of the mission is the driving force - not personal glory. That's what I meant about the plain (or is it plane?) of focus.
But what do I know? I just live with them -- or try. Thanks Michael, for the tag line on the bottom of your posts.
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Post by conz on Aug 25, 2008 8:17:25 GMT -6
I think I understand what you mean...you equate "glory" with public acclaim. Our Soldiers don't do their jobs to the best of their ability for that...they do it for their own internal concept of "doing your best" to get the job done.
See, for me, that IS glory...the self-satisfaction of having done your best. Forget the public acclaim.
My contention, getting back to point, is that Custer was never trying his best to gain public acclaim. He pursued the "glory" of self-satisfaction of getting the job well done. And he sought that out every chance he could get.
I think the key to this judgment is whether Custer would have done the same thing regardless of whether a newspaper correspondent was present.
I can't see Custer ever doing anything differently on any of his campaigns...Civil War to Indian Wars, regardless of whether or not it ever made the press. He didn't wear his "circus outfit," his long locks, nor lead innumerable charges for the press.
Clair
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Post by conz on Aug 25, 2008 8:58:55 GMT -6
clw,
Thought of you as I was doing my daily survey of military journals at work today...
"August 25, 2008: Afghanistan is once more becoming a gathering place for special operations (commando) operators from dozens of countries…
"From the beginning, in September, 2001, Afghanistan was very much a special operations war. The United States asked all of its allies to contribute their commando forces, and most eagerly obliged. This enthusiasm came from the realization that this part of the world was particularly difficult to operate in, and would be a welcome challenge to men who had trained hard for years for missions like this.
"Afghanistan has been called "the Commando Olympics," because so many nations have contingents there. While the different commando organizations aren't competing with each other, they are performing similar missions, using slightly different methods and equipment. Naturally, everyone compares notes and makes changes based on combat experience. That's the draw for commandoes, getting and using "combat experience."
Training is great, but there's nothing like operating against an armed and hostile foe. This is all a real big thing, as the participating commandoes are becoming a lot more effective. But you can't get a photograph of this increased capability, and the commandoes aren't talking to the press. So it's all a big story you'll never hear much about, except in history books, many years from now."
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Post by BrokenSword on Aug 25, 2008 9:02:20 GMT -6
clw -"...Thanks Michael, for the tag line on the bottom of your posts...."
Sadeepie, all of the thanks are due from me.
Michael
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Post by shan on Aug 26, 2008 9:33:08 GMT -6
When I first started laying out my theory of the Custer part of the battle I thought I'd start with Luce as there seems to be some evidence for what happened up there, and in what sequence, compared with say, what happened once the command got to Calhoun. Well, as many of you have pointed out, even something that seems on the surface seems to be relatively straight forward can be bent and twisted to suit whatever theory you happen to wish to tie your colours to at this particular moment, myself included.
In spite of what I've read, {How many times have we all said that, } I still think most of us would agree that part of Custers command traversed the ridge whilst another part went to the ford for whatever reason, and that those up on the ridge did some fairly heavy firing at various enemy groups who were moving about in what were probably several different locations. Whatsmore, I think it is also generally agreed that as of yet Custers command is not under any serious threat, and that by virtue of the fact that he is intent on moving North, he seemingly has something else in mind other than attacking across MTF.
Given that, I am not sure that I at least can wring anything more out of the trip across Luce, in which case, I think I will push on onto Nye Cartwright. Here again we see plenty of evidence of heavy firing, seemingly delivered by both mounted and dismounted men, but, given; as far as I know, neither Luce nor Nye have ever been subjected to a proper archaeological survey, what evidence we have seems to be mainly anecdotal. If we are okay with that and accept it, and by and large I do, then what this tells me is that Custers force must have been faced by more indians, possible even mobile ones, than many of the books I've read, seem to imply.
But then this seems logical if one thinks about it for a minute. After all, he would have hardly been prepared to waste ammunition firing at a few will o the wisps at this stage of events if it wasn't warranted. One presumes he almost certainly knew by now that he was going to be involved in a tough fight, one that might take much longer than he had oridginally anticipated, whatsmore, he couldn't be sure when or where he would get replenishments in either men or ammunition, which in turn, surely meant he needed to think about conserving ammunition where ever possible.
While I'm at it, I'm also guessing that the same was true of his horses. He will have reasoned that he might need them to be able to move rapidly over ground that wasn't best suited to them over the next couple of hours or even longer, so it seems reasonable to guess that he would also have been wary of any unnessacary energy expenditure on their part.
By the time he was approaching the Northern edges of Nye, the part that overlooked Deep Coulee, I believe things were beginning to get serious. Some have suggested that the two volleys heard back at Reno hill were probably a signal to those down towards the ford to move back and join those on the ridge, well possibly, but why waste ammunition, why not use bugle calls, surely the distance between the two forces wasn't that great at this stage.
For my part I think some of this firing was directed at a number of Indians who had appeared over on the opposite ridge in the vicinity of Greasy Grass. These Indians would have crossed earlier at Deep Ravine ford, and were probably now intent on getting into positions where they could fire down at the troopers moving back up the Deep coulee area. Added to the problems they could cause him, there were those Indians who had swarmed across MTF the moment the soldiers had left the area, many of whom had swung south up MTC to re-appear at various points on his flanks.
With regards to the timing of these events, I tend to swing wildly in my thinking from week to week, month to month, and god help me, year to year, but for the moment I believe we are somewhere around 4.15 { Grey's timing,} shortly before those 2 volleys.
Now here's where it gets difficult. If we are to believe the general feel one gets from a number of Indian accounts, once the "retreating soldiers," remember that is how the indians would have perceived that move away from the ford, had joined the others, as far as they, the Indians, were concerned, this is where the battle proper begins. Men like Lone Bear and Hollow Horn Bear say that once the two wings came together there was a short fight or stand in the Finley and, or, Calhoun area, and that all the companies were mixed up by then, with the greys intermingled with the others.
Now before you dismiss this as fanciful mistranslation, or of them simply mis-remembering things some time later, the one thread that runs through many Indian accounts is this fixation on the greys and their whereabouts, so I think we should take this observation in particular fairly seriously. They then to go on and imply that this is where the buffalo hunt begins. { Is that the sound of big guns being pointed in my direction, or of the death squad gathering on the distant horizon?}
But, but, on the other hand, the fact that the bodies of most of E and F companies were found together at the far end of the ridge seems to imply that they and Custer had moved on and were not involved in the fighting in Findley or Calhoun, in which case . . . . . in which case case what? Well, maybe that big WHAT is telling me that this is as good point as any at which to stop, so stop I will.
Shan
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Post by bc on Aug 26, 2008 9:37:16 GMT -6
clw: I think your theory is consistent with John Lockwood in the Custer Fell First Book. Now all we have to prove is Lockwood being a packer during the campaign as well as having worked for Charley Reynolds as a freighter and as having delivered messages for the Army at the Yellowstone in the years prior to 1876.
That was always my first theory. However, Lockwood's nephew, Ryan, took his manuscript, conducted his own research, and applied the charge to MTC at Ford B as where Custer fell in the book. I'd want to see Lockwood's original manuscript but your theory made me look closer at Lockwood's writing (assuming it is). But I'm beginning to believe Lockwood was referring to a charge at Ford D. He has them riding north about 8 miles before stopping for about 20 minutes to distribute ammunition and adjust saddles, etc.
I've never looked at the Ford D area but others here can help. Lockwood describes all five companies lined up on a line abreast of each other. They begin their charge to the river. With a ridge to their front going to the river, 2 companies move to the left side of the ridge with 3 companies on the right. A few hundred yards from the river, the NAs open up dropping Custer and much of his staff who were together at the front. The troops stop their charge, begin returning fire as skirmishers, they recover their downed men, and retreat.
My question to others is: Does the terrain from LSH to Ford D support this description? For that matter, does the ridge dividing the companies support a Ford B charge?
I read recently that Martini said he saw Custer's troops retreat. Some of you may not believe him but if he did see that, does the time factor work for Martini riding a few extra miles back to Benteen?
I know most of you think this is a bunch of hullabaloo and all your reasons why are posted on other threads so I ask you not to restate the negativity but to play the devils' advocate with me on my questions.
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Post by clw on Aug 26, 2008 10:05:21 GMT -6
I've never read Lockwood, but it sounds like I should. My biggest handicap is not having been to the battlefield. Soon. Anyway, the deployment you describe to the ford is similar to the way I see it. Who and how many were hit and/or bodies rescued, I haven't delved into. It's possible of course. Kellog's body was in the general vicinity. On my map, I've marked Voss (trumpeter) as being found there too, but don't remember why at the moment.
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Post by bc on Aug 26, 2008 11:05:34 GMT -6
clw: not sure reading Custer fell first helps you much. I basically paraphrased it. Ryan took his research of NA accounts and trip to LBH to put the charge at MTC. Lockwood himself that before the charge he departed to the north with a message for Reno (with Reynolds going the other way) and crossing the river to the north, in behind the NA camps on the west side of them, and then crossing over to Reno from the south after dark. Before crossing the LBH, he looked back to see Custer and staff fall and the charge repulsed. Quite a ride and tale for sure. It is my reassessment that may put his charge at ford D. There are not many of you who claim that all the action at LSH, battle ridge, Calhoun Hill, etc. all occured during a movement of all of Custer's battalion back from Ford D.
(Boyes has his theory of crossing at Ford D moving south into the vill, and then crossing the LBH again back to LSH but I am guessing he has a previous division of forces but I don't know for sure.)
Anyway, yours is a new one on me and as well researched you are on other issues, I have to give it some creedence. Some people are to tied into the times but I see things lasting longer than most think including maybe up to a couple hours at Weir point and moving back to Reno hill close to dark. Long enough at Weir point to see the swarms of NA at the vill and river before moving up to attack. Hearing firing for a long time. See the NAs in riding in formation with stolen uniforms and a guidon, etc. The NAs moving towards Weir later. I'm just waiting to see a battle analysis showing movements to the south and how that correlates with NA accounts.
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 26, 2008 11:16:53 GMT -6
Shan,
Those pesky grays are a perennial problem.
No-one, as far as I know, has ever isolated any info on how the band horses were allocated. Maybe they were spread evenly throughout the command. But how about trying this for size? (1) The companies in Custer's command were the ones who'd gone on Reno's scout, so their horses had been harder worked than others. It's then reasonable to think that the band horses might go as remounts to C, E, F, I & L. (2) According to Peter Thompson at least, Co. C was the hardest worked of all, with Harrington volunteering them for every extra task available. Their horses certainly seem to have been in the poorest condition, with the highest rate of stragglers. Suppose Co. C got the bulk of the band horses? (Of course one could equally argue that their stragglers indicate they didn't get many remounts ...) However, there'd have been something like sixteen band horses in all: a large enough bunch of grays to make an impression on Indian witnesses if all, or even most, of them were concentrated in one company. If it was indeed C, this would fit with where many people believe the "buffalo hunt" part begins. Possible?
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Post by shan on Aug 27, 2008 7:01:42 GMT -6
Elizabeth,
I think you may be onto something here, unfortunately I have no idea how these band horses were allocated, but your theory would certainly allow the Indians who were coming up from lower ground, to have seen what they took to be the grey horse troop up above them, without their knowing that the actual grey troop had already moved on further North with Custer.
shan
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