miles from the battle proper

[Walt Cross]

Scout;
You are applying our moral and cultural norms to the 19th century. There were many soldiers who went unburied, for years. That's why travelers and visitors to the LBH area kept complaining to newspapers, congressmen and the Army. It wasn't until many months, even years before the LBH battlefield became sacred ground to the U.S. Army. A few months exposed to the harsh environment of the Montana winters, scavenging animals and alkali soil and you couldn't hardly tell human bones from mules and horses, officers from enlisted. I will tell you that I have grave (no pun intended) doubts the bones buried in West Point are those of George Armstrong Custer.

Sorry for that pessimistic view, but the battlefield was a horror and despite burial after burial the remains were exposed over and over again. If you have not done so I recommend you read every book you can get your hands on written by Hardorff, especially his two volumes on Custer casualties. The world of the soldiers of the Indian Wars was hard, cruel and painful, there was little sympathy to be had and no patience for worrying about the dead.

BTW, my folks are from Tennessee (Sullivan and Jackson Counties). The ones from Sullivan fought for the CSA those from Jackson, the Union. A book was written about my Union forebears called "A Southern Boy in Blue" an excellent read.

My book is titled "Custer's Lost Officer (main title) the Search for Lieutenant Henry Moore Harrington, 7th U.S. Cavalry (subtitle)". Its currently at the University of Nebraska Press, and has been there since the end of November. I wish they would make up their minds to publish or not.

Also, the more you read, the more you will discover the weaknesses of the officers. Many were alcoholics, cruel to their men, jealous, and grasping for glory to get that promotion that often didn't come for decades.

I don't mean to be negative, its just the way things were. Despite that it was a time of great adventure, and that is what drew young men like Henry Harrington.

Walt

[Mike Lentz]

Walt:

I really enjoy reading your comments on different questions/theories on LBH. You're right on target when you say we apply our moral codes of the 20th/21st centuries to the 19th century
American West.

Question for you on the reburials. When Mike Sheridan went out in July 1877 to exhume the officers remains for proper burials elsewhere, how come the two Custer's in one grave was so hard to find? They had the biggest, most detailed burial on Last stand Hill from what I've read. I've read may times that "Custer's body was picked up, but replaced when another man's name was found in a blouse, so they substituted another & this time they got it right". Was that other person his brother Tom then? I have never read anywhere on when getting George's body nothing was said about finding Tom next to him---do you know of any references to this? If they weren't sure on the two Custer brothers, how sure were they on the other officer's remains, like Yates, Smith, etc.? Was Sheridan truthful or did they just go through the motions of thinking they had the right bodies? I mean they said they marked the graves with shell casings driven into stakes at time of first burial, but these had to be disturbed also by animals & nature. It's was a disgraceful thing & lack of respect of how our politicians let the battlefield be neglected for so long after the fight---our/my heroes deserved better.

Keep up the push on your book--many are eagerly awaiting to read it. Thanks for your objective insights. Gary Owen.

Mike Lentz

[markland]

Regarding the burial of the alleged bodies. If they actually were there, not disputing anyone mind you, I wonder if the reason of the non-burial may have been a bit more prosaic, i.e. they didn't have any shovels. I need to do a bit of research into standard equipment for patrols but I don't see troopers carrying a shovel without a mule to carry it.

Walt, you said, "The world of the soldiers of the Indian Wars was hard, cruel and painful, there was little sympathy to be had and no patience for worrying about the dead." I can somewhat vouch for that, as during my research into Army dead, 1849-1895, on the Western frontier, death was a constant companion. But, that being said, there are many recorded instances were the dead were given what honors that could be given and the bodies were sometimes recovered at great risk. Perhaps since I am more familiar with this than other periods, the first thing that jumps out at me was Carrington's determination to recover the remainder of the dead from the Fetterman fight of 12/21/1866. This was over the objections of, as he says, all of his officers.

Speaking of the dead, it just occurred to me. Were the bodies of the troopers killed at Rosebud ever recovered or even located?

Best of wishes,

Billy

[Michael Nunnally]

Walt,

You make some good points. But while I dismiss a large number ..or just about all ...of the dead soldier stories I want to make one point. My main point is the finding of a body WITH the Rosebud horse. I really don't believe the Nathan Short or Oscar Warner tales. These two men were ID'd by hats? What if they lost them on the way to the battlefield? Or some Indian later discarded them? the findings of these hats are, in my opinion, so much gossip. I think it was crazy to erect a monument to Nathan Short on such flimsy evidence or lack of. Until stronger evidence surfaces I have to believe these two died nobly with there companies....but of course, there is one documented soldier who supposedly dropped out on the way to the LBH..... Private John Walton....he is listed as too sick to go on...regimental muster roll say..'' Missing, fell out of the company while on the march, supposed to have died or been killed by Indians.''Or lastly a messager sent before the Regiment reached the LBH, but of course, there would have been someone who would have note of this among the officers. I have metal detected here in the south for Civil War relics and have dug hundreds of bullets, shell fragments, buttons and such, but would trade the lot to look at some of these so called Rosebud dead horse sites. There would have to be a button or two there if the stories were true. Shall we mount an expedition?

As far as Custer's bones go....I totally agree with you on his being buried at West Point. It was susposedly only a hatful and there seemed to be some doubt incurred. Custer was susposedly found lying over two other troopers at the top of the hill.. but at the battlefield the closest marker near him is..what 5 or 6 feet? I think there is to much confusion as to where he actually lay to say it was definitely him. We know why the original shallow graves and non-burials took place of course..several Indian accounts say a handful of warriors revisited the battlefield in the winter of 76-77 and might have been resonsible for plundering the grave. the stench coupled with the heat must have been overwhelming. Billy makes a good point on the shovels...the few they had would not have been carried on their mounts.

Scout Mike



I read something recently about Harrington's bones....was it in the journal...how his remains were taken away ''for study.'' Does anyone know if they will be reinterred at the battlefield?

[Walt Cross]

Good stuff fellas, I shall try to answer each of you if I can.

Mike Lentz;
You kind of answered your own question. Weather, animals alkali soil all conspired to devour flesh and bone, shift bones, and disintegrate them. The burials were done with few tools and what soil could be scraped from the hard sun-baked surface of the plains. If stakes were used chances are they were blown down and washed away in the torrential storms that happen in that area.

One year after the battle a second burial was done and almost immediately a hail storm wrecked the mounds of earth and rains exposed the remains again. Again, for reference I recommend Hardorff's excellent books.

Marland;
Your point is well taken and one that had occurred to me as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no where have I seen referecne to a shovel as part of a cavalryman's gear. Perhaps for an infantryman? You are right, I would assume they would be carried in the pack train.

There is always exceptions of course, and there were commanders who saw to it their men were taken care of, even after death.

As for the soldiers killed in the Battle of the Rosebud, they were taken and buried in a mass grave. Then horseswere run over the site and other things were done to hide it, but the Sioux found them. They were dug up and mutilated and scattered and desecrated. And that was part of the Sioux's revenge.

Scout Mike;
All I'm suggesting is that you look at the literature in a little more positive fashion. No doubt the Indians revisited the battlefield and did what they do. They had an extremely efficient communication network and by the winter knew the Army's interest in Custer. They also had fresh reprisals such as the attack on Dull Knife/Morning Star's village to add to their hatred of the Army. They knew where Custer fell, if not from their own memories, from the stories spread by the white man. I have little doubt they did what they wanted with the remains, up to and including spiriting them away to a "sacred" place in the Little Big Horn mountains.

Yes, lets mount an expedition!

Walt

[Walt Cross]

Scout Mike;
I realized I didn't answer your last question. Colonel John Harrington, great grandson of Henry, has indicated to me his preference of burying the remains in Arlington cemetery. I assume that will be a decision the family will make. Oh, you may not know, he wrote the forward to my book. He is a retired armored cavalryman, three time recepient of the Silver Star for Gallantry in Action.

Walt

[Mike Nunnally]

Walt,

Great stuff....your theory about the Indians taking Custer's bones is a something I never thought. I don't know how much damage wolves and coyotes did, but the Indians must have been able to tell one grave was specially interred.

So Lt. Harrington will finally be layed to rest after 129 years after the battle...I would love to have the full story on why and where his remains have been all these years. What is the story there? Do you know?

Scout M.

[Walt Cross]

Scout Mike;
Yes, that is what the book is all about. You know I like talking this stuff and you just keep asking don't ya? Well, it works! Here's how I got started on this:

In the Spring of '03 I was reading a book titled "Bones" by Elaine Dewar. She was investigating when the first Americans arrived on the North American Continent. She went to the Smithsonian and spoke to their chief anthropologist Dr. Douglas Owsley. She asked if you could readily tell the difference between a caucasian European skull and an Indian skull. She went on to say that Owsley pulled a skull from out of a drawer and said "This is the skull of one of Custer's 7th Cavalry troopers."

I sat up in my chair and said outload "What the hell?" My wife said what are you mumbling about? Ignoring her, I went on the internet and started trying to find Owsley. I couldn't find his email so I emailed anther anthropologist nearby the Smithsonian at the National Museum of Health and Medicine, the descendant institution of what was originally the Army Medical Museum. I was in luck, because the skull had rested in this museum for decades before going to the Smithsonian. This scientist, Paul, sent me tons of information on the skull its provenance and a good deal of info on the BLBH. While reading a series of articles I came across Harrington's portrait and in another article, the skull specimen 2120, then in another article a reconstruction done of 2120. I said "Good gosh, its the same guy!" That started my quest, I never set out to write this book, it just happened.

The more I researched, the more things fell in place. The more scientists I spoke to and forensic experts the more I became convinced. The more convinced I became, the more determined I became to tell Henry Moore Harrington's story.

There, I've gone on far too long. Suffice it to say that not only did the research, in my mind, show the remains were Henry, but it also showed he was the man the Indians honored with the title of "The bravest man the Sioux ever fought."

That's it, don't ask me any more questions you rascal!

Walt

[Lawtonka]

Hey Mike --- What or who is you new book about? I would like to get a copy when it is available.

[PGBIII]

This is frustrating. Somehow I have become a victim of this board’s technology. It seems to have forgotten my ID. Anyway, I wanted to weigh in on poor Nathan Short. While it is a great story and of course illustrates our strong desire for that glimmer of hope that tells us someone could have escaped, I would say that Mr. Short probably fell on Calhoun Hill or along Battle Ridge with the majority of his company. Further, Godfrey makes note that the feedbag was essentially full, ruling out the possibility that the horse had traveled far. Certainly not to the Little Bighorn and back again. And, if it were Mr. Short with this horse, it would stand to reason that he never made it to the LBH and back again.

[Mike Nunnally]

Walt,

I'll definetly have to get your book when it hits the streets...I never seem to grow tired of this stuff....some sort of compulsive disorder I believe. Anyway Walt, now the 64 thousand dollar question...where was Harrington's remains found? Or was that ever disclosed? I tell you this is a great story, particularly after all the years people speculated about what happened to his body.

Anyway, the name of my book is ''I Survived Custer's Last Stand''. I'm publishing it myself and while it's not a large book...only 40 or 50 pages...it is really interesting stuff. It's about the ''sole survivors'', those old geezers that claimed to have escaped and also some other tall tales about the Little Big Horn. There are a number of ''new'' claimants I found....some of their stories are simply insane...... Anyway, I did the illustrations and there are several photos included as well. I was hoping to have them ready in time for the conventions, but I'm real problems with the printer....dosen't seem to be able to get started on it.

Anyway I guess you could tell I am not a believer in the Nathan Short story and don't think any soldier's body was ever found.....just don't think enough evidence exist at this time to make those conclusions.

Good conversation guys!!

Scout Mike

''General.... you go down there.... if you got the nerve!"

[Walt Cross]

Scout Mike;
Sorry, I'll leave that for the book. You will be surprised though.

Walt

[Mike Nunnally]

I sent an email quesionaire to a number of LBHA & CBHMA members and asked the question..''Could Reno have saved Custer?'' The answers came back....No..10......yes...1
I got some really long 2 page answers, the best being from Brian Pohanka, God Bless him, who sent me over 2 pages of his thoughts on it. Great stuff!
Anyway, I find very few serious students of the battle who think Reno and company could have made it thru the village alive...would have been the American version of ''The Charge of the Light Brigade''. This would have really changed history, think about, there would be hundreds of books out on Reno now! Anyway, I would have made the same decision...feets don't fail me now! Anyone have any different thoughts on this?

Thanks alot Walt....you got me all excited and shut the door! Anyway, I understand....I could talk hours about the so called sole survivors and about a number of really tall tales by a number of actual participants but I would be giving the best stories out of my book away. The trooper who may have closes to escaping though, may have been Sgt. Butler....He may have been sent for help or maybe attemping an escape, we don't know but he was find some distance away.
Now the possibility exists that he may have been killed earlier in the fight in relation to Medicine Tail Coulee, but there was supposedly a number of shells find under the body indicating he put up a fight...boy, would I love to dig those up! But if he was wounded early in the fight I seriously doubt he would have been left behind. He would have had to been killed outright for this to happened. My personal feeling would be that it was an escape attempt...I mean sergeants are usually sent as couriers...except in the most extreme circumstances...and this was one!

Got any thoughts on this?

Scout Mike

7:00 am...in Memphis, Tn.,...yall

[John Mackintosh]

Let me play devil's advocate on this Nathan Short mystery. Perhaps the officers and private are telling us precisely what they saw:
The enlisted men who say they saw Short actually did. Other officers (not interviewed by Camp because he was no longer alive--the list is long Wallace, French, Weir, etc.) came up and had the remains buried BEFORE officers like Godfrey came up. Godfrey, of course, lived long enough to make it into the Walter Camp era and declare he saw no human remains.

Now, that said, I did say devil's advocate because I think the weight of the testimony leans towards Nathan Short not having been found there. Whether they are officers or enlisted men is irrelevant to the fact that far more people didn't recall seeing Short at all compared to the two who did. If the devil's advocate burial scenario I made up above had taken place, we would have people stating they either heard about it or saw the fresh grave.

As for Frank Finkel, his story has always fascinated me although I don't believe it. I have the Ellison book, the Kuhlman one that started it all and Bill Bose's refutation of Finkel. Someone needs to compile and publish the imost interesting of survivor stories just for the pure joy of reading them. I don't believe a one of them, though, especially the latest--the Billy Heath one.

[Lawtonka]

Hey John, this looks like its going to be a decent board. This is a very interesting subject, Short, that is.

I have not completely read everything here as of yet, but, I would like to inject one point of view in defense of Sgt. Kanipe. I think the facts that he came up with were true concerning that he (1) was not present at the scene (2) that he knew Short to be of his own company (3) that is markings on his hat were known by him. If I remember correctly, this was all information given to him concerning the remains. He was verifying what he knew about Short and some of his clothing.

Wow, I like the statement one person posted about how this myth grew to a point that a monument was actually erected for him. I have visited the marker three times over the years. True or not, it sure adds to the fascination of the campaign. Everyone who traces the route down the Rosebud from the Yellowstone makes a point to stop there.

It would sure be nice if all of this could be verified for sure, but like many other aspects of the campaign, it is another unsolved mystery. It sure gives us something to talk about, doesn't it. And, we can have fun with our own theories. Who knows, we might be able to come to some logical explanation. I appreciate all of the conversation here. We can all learn together.