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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 1, 2005 16:44:12 GMT -5
Mike;
No we're not talking about two different things. Here is the report you are referring to made by Private Gavin a year later during the continuing struggles with the Sioux on the Rosebud. Likely this occured around May of 1877 about the time of the Battle of Muddy Creek. This body is far south of where the Yellowstone and Rosebud meet: Gavin and the others were traveling from the Tongue River Cantonment.
“We came across it while forced marching to Reno [Fort Reno, Wyoming]…also [was found] the skeleton of an officer…[who] was a lieutenant for his shoulder straps were found with the skeleton. He fought and died on that spot. He no doubt was trying to reach Reno for reinforcements for his command when overtaken and took to the high table of land to fight to a finish, which he did as the surround showed plainly. I had two of the arrows that I pulled out of the ground near the horse and gave them to a friend of mine here. No doubt they were fired into the horse. Likewise the lieutenant while suffering on the ground, as there were over a dozen arrows laying around him and the horse.”
Source: Hardorff, Richard “The Custer Battle Casualties II” pp. 73-74.
I can tell you now that Gavin's story regarding the arrows matches the narrative and pictographic drawing of Amos Bad Heart Bull of the slaying of a cavalryman in that very area. Amos' artwork and narrative, dictated to him by his grandfather back up Gavin's report. That's two primary sources. Hard to dismiss. Perhaps you may wish to consider these reports in just a little more positive light?
Walt
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 1, 2005 16:48:56 GMT -5
Mike L;
I will have to look at Sturgis again. I think he was identified and buried on the battlefield, his father refusing to claim his body.
As for my book, it has passed the editorial review and is in the hands of Nebraska Press' historical research team. They have to make sure I don't have Custer riding around in a HumVee. Usually, so they say, that takes about 30 days, but they have had it for more than 60. Not sure what that means.
Walt
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Post by Steve Wilk on Jun 2, 2005 1:05:20 GMT -5
Walt, I thought Sturgis' body was not found; that his bloody shirt was found in the village site, and that the marker with his name on it was to console his mother. Have you found out otherwise?
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Post by Mike Lentz on Jun 2, 2005 6:23:18 GMT -5
Walt:
Good to hear that your book should be coming out real soon--looking forward to it. Can you clarify more on the body found after the LBH battle near the Yellowstone. Was the one Godfrey & others saw right after the 6/25/1876 battle--around August or so of 1876? This is the one that people think is Nathan Short. Then another was found in May of 1877 near the same place? Or are they the same, in just different sates of decomposition? Just a little confused.
Also, on Jack Sturgis. I had read his bloody shirt was found in the Indian village. His body was never identified & his father refused it? Or was this J.J. Crittinton whose father said let him lie where he fell & was finally buried in LBH cemetery in the 1920's. Are Sturgis & Dr. Lord then the only officers still not accounted for?
It truly amazes me the passions this campaign of 1876 stirs up in people, whether for or against Custer, Reno, Benteen, the tactics used/not used - it's just human nature I guess that we had over 700 soldiers,scouts, etc. on the US side & for the ones who survived, each saw the events in different ways & not many agree on the events that transpired there. I guess it's that nature in people & the facts that have been written down that keeps me interested in this chapter of our collective history. I truly enjoy all viewpoints and all the educated theories that have come from this chapter-----may the investigations & thirst for truths be never-ending. Thanks Walt for your steady & though-out viewpoints. Keep us posted on the book. Gary Owen!
Mike Lentz
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Post by Mike Nunnally on Jun 2, 2005 8:13:03 GMT -5
Walt,
Thanks for the response and the spirit in which it was answered, but I still think we are talking about two different occurences. My focus was on the Rosebud Horse and the Nathan Short story, but that's ok, we can agree to disagree. Galvin's account speaks of finding a officer with a horse. I know of no other accounts of anyone supposedly finding a dead officer. Think about it, this would have been big news. Why wasn't the body stripped clean? Why are there no accounts by officers of this incident? Why didn't Galvin report this? He must have been with other soldiers..surely they would have reported this incident, but we find nothing other than Galvin's account...I mean what was he doing out there by himself? I can find no other accounts at all that support this tale...does anyone else have an account that would back up Galvin's account? Would love to read it. This is a highly suspicious story in my opinion.
Anyway, I have to agree with Mike Lentz..this stuff sure is fun to discuss and certaintly brings out alot of passion after all these years....and speaking of books, does anyone know how many have been written about the Little Big Horn? I'm sure it would be enough to fill a small library.
Mike N.
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 2, 2005 8:20:03 GMT -5
Hi all,
In a letter to his wife written in 'Camp on the Yellowstone River, Montana Territory, July 4, 1876', Lieutenant Francis M. Gibson wrote, in part:
Gibson later told his wife of an incident on the night of June 24 1876, when Lt. W. W. Cooke came into his tent wher Jack Sturgis was also present. As Mrs Gibson recorded it, Cooke said:
Source: Katherine Gibson Fougera, With Custer's Cavalry: From the memoirs of the late Katherine Gibson, widow of Captain Francis M. Gibson, USA (retired), (University of Nebraska, 1986 reprint of 1940 edition), pp. 271 & 276-277.
Ciao,
GAC
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 2, 2005 9:21:33 GMT -5
Mike Nunnally: Tal Luther put a bibliography together in 1972 that lists 196 items. I cannot imagine how long that list would be now. The list, called "High Spots of Custeriana," is in the LBHA Research section of the website. Here's the direct link: www.lbha.org/Research/tal2.htm. |
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Post by George Armstrong Custer on Jun 2, 2005 11:06:04 GMT -5
Mike Nunnally: Tal Luther put a bibliography together in 1972 that lists 196 items. I cannot imagine how long that list would be now. The list, called "High Spots of Custeriana," is in the LBHA Research section of the website. Here's the direct link: www.lbha.org/Research/tal2.htm. Yes, Luther's bibliography remains a great resource even 30 years on, Diane. As to how long the liist would be today - well into the thousands anyway! Remember, Luther's list - as his title implies - consisted only of those titles he regarded as particular 'high spots' in the Custer bibliography (though as one pithy critic pointed out, he managed to include a few 'low spots' as well!). Paul A. Hutton notes in his Bibliographical Essay in his The Custer Reader that Fred Dustin's bibliography in 1953 listed 641 items - imagine how many have been added in the past half century! Books aside, Hutton also point out the vast bibliography on periodicals which carry Custer articles - meticulously catalogued by the late John Carroll, this ran to over 3,000 entries, and that number must have increased dramatically since the list was last updated. The biggest problem to emerge from all this? Shelf space! ;D Regards, George |
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 2, 2005 11:14:01 GMT -5
Yes, I made a booboo confusing Sturgis with Crittenden. It was Crittenden who refused to move his sons body to another place of burial.
Walt
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 2, 2005 11:38:36 GMT -5
Mike N;
Say, you two Mikes need to come up with a nickname. Your inciteful questions are making me reveal more than I want because I go into detail on this in my book. There was an officer that viewed this selfsame (I believe) body. He was led there by an Indian Scout who, a year before, was engaged against Custer and was now on the Army payroll as a scout.
In fact there were two officers and a patrol of 5th Cavalry. Now, I don't know what unit Gavin served in, there were several engaged in this area from the 5th Cavalry to the 22nd Infantry and one or two more units I can't recall right now. Gavin was not alone, in fact you will notice that he says "We" came across a body. Now, I don't think Gavin was with this particular patrol, I think he may have found the body before the 5th Cavalry patrol.
This patrol was made up as I mentioned, of an Army surgeon, a cavalry captain, and some troopers and several Indian scouts. They were returning to Fort Laramie after dropping off some mules at the Tongue River Cantonment. The surgon came along to do ornithological studies (did you know this was a "big" hobby among Army surgeons and other contemporaries of the time?) and also looking for skull "specimens" wanted by the Army Surgeon General.
Gavin was force marching from the same cantonment to Fort Reno. Chronologically I feel Gavin found the body first, probably in May. The patrol came through just almost to a day one year after the LBH battle. What happened next is in my book. Don't you just hate teasers?
The fact this body was encountered on more than one occasion leads me to believe it was on a well used trail that leads from the Rosebud to the LBH. And that makes perfect sense, he was fleeing down that trail away from LBH when he was killed. After his death the Indians sat on their horses and shot him full of arrows.
The upshot of this is that you actually have three primary sources on this body; Gavin, the surgeon (who wrote about it), and Amos Bad Heart Bull.
Now, I know why the surgeon kept silent, but I don't know why the cavalry captain said nothing about the find. I can tell you however, that the surgeon came from a very well to do and prominent military family and had the where-with-all to purchase anyone's silence. Why he did that is also in my book.
I can hear your mind turning over from here. You gotta have patience, I promise you will be surprised, then skeptical, then upon further introspection, I think you will end up agreeing with me.
Walt
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 2, 2005 11:46:20 GMT -5
Correction:
I meant to say about the surgeon "Why he WOULD do that..." rather than "...why he DID..." I have no evidence he actually bought the captain's silence.
Walt
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 2, 2005 11:49:22 GMT -5
Mike L:
Yes, I believe the stories are about two bodies. One at the junction of the Yellowstone and Rosebud Rivers and the other many miles south near the Rosebud and the Wolf Mountains. I'm not aware of the August find by Godfrey, or if I've read about it, I've forgotten. Tell me more.
Walt
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Post by markland on Jun 2, 2005 13:11:46 GMT -5
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 2, 2005 18:18:47 GMT -5
Thanks Billy;
I knew of King's article. I take issue with the suicide portion. This fleeing trooper was cut off and killed by two Santee Warriors after riding many miles east up to as much as fifteen miles.
The two warriors were brothers, and the one took the trooper's horse, claiming he had killed Custer himself. The second brother was killed by the officer although he did not die immediately.
The map appears inaccurate, I would go with a more modern interpretation myself.
Walt
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Post by Mike Nunnally on Jun 2, 2005 20:28:42 GMT -5
Walt,
What is the name of your book again? and when did you say it was coming out? All and all very interesting stuff..can't say I agree with you but I would be interested in reading more.
You say the body was viewed on more than one occasion which begs the question...if this was a soldier why in the world didn't they bury it? I mean they keep riding by it? This makes absolutely no sense what so ever in my line of thinking...this was a brother trooper..and he wasn't worth the time to bury? As we say here in Tennessee...that dog won't hunt. It is some fascinating stuff though.
Diane, thanks for the book count. It seems like several new Custer books come out each year.
I was at an estate sale several weeks ago and bought a book for .50 cents titled...The Price of the Prairie...published in 1910. It's fiction and about the Battle Of Beecher's Island and has 4 or 5 color illustrations that are worth framing by an illustrator named J.N Marchand. Anyway this has nothing to do with anything we're discussing but I do buy anything that has something to do with the Indian Wars. Found a great copy of Boots & Saddles from 1913 for one dollar at yard sale.
Scout Mike
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