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Post by conz on May 15, 2009 17:16:15 GMT -6
...these military professionals knew their business...they were deadly killing machines. Clair
Shouldn't that be dead and killed machines? Custer Hotdog Stands Yeah...that too. <g> Clair |
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Post by twoscones on May 16, 2009 15:33:02 GMT -6
I AM AFRAID THAT MOST OF YOUR "DEADLY KILLING MACHINES" WERE RAW RECRUITS WITH VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE. AS FOR HAVING A KNIFE TO EXTRACT A JAMMED CARTRIDGE CASE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, AND WITH HUNDREDS OF INDIANS CHARGING TOWARDS YOU IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VIRTUALY IMPOSSIBLE. THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF USING THEIR RIFLES AS A CLUB.
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Post by conz on May 16, 2009 16:46:09 GMT -6
I AM AFRAID THAT MOST OF YOUR "DEADLY KILLING MACHINES" WERE RAW RECRUITS WITH VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE. AS FOR HAVING A KNIFE TO EXTRACT A JAMMED CARTRIDGE CASE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, AND WITH HUNDREDS OF INDIANS CHARGING TOWARDS YOU IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VIRTUALY IMPOSSIBLE. THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF USING THEIR RIFLES AS A CLUB. Yeah, the natives say that they did use their carbines as clubs in close combat. Most of the Soldiers were NOT raw recruits, though, you'll find...only a few were. The great majority of the Soldiers were veterans, most of several fights and many patrols. A few had been warriors for more years than most of the Warriors had been fighting. Clair |
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on May 18, 2009 5:09:02 GMT -6
I AM AFRAID THAT MOST OF YOUR "DEADLY KILLING MACHINES" WERE RAW RECRUITS WITH VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE. AS FOR HAVING A KNIFE TO EXTRACT A JAMMED CARTRIDGE CASE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, AND WITH HUNDREDS OF INDIANS CHARGING TOWARDS YOU IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VIRTUALY IMPOSSIBLE. THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF USING THEIR RIFLES AS A CLUB.
twoscones, my apologies as my previous post was not that helpful to you. However, you will observe over time that Conz is the self-appointed cheer leader for the 7th Cavalry (and indeed all soldiers) and his posts are not exactly unbiased. Indeed, his response to your above quoted post, is a typical exaggeration. The 7th at the LBH contained some raw recruits and a few men who had been at the Washita and Yellowstone fights. The breakdown of recruits, those longer serving but untried in battle etc., is somewhere on the 'Cavalry Training' thread I believe and I suggest it would make interesting reading for you. As to the jammed rifles situation, it is well covered in 'Archeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Big Horn' by Scott, Fox et al on pages 113 and 114. In case you do not have that book, the following extracts will help:- "Major Reno (1876) noted that of 380 carbines in his command 6 were rendered unserviceable owing to cartridge extraction failures. He does not, however, identify the total number of carbines that had problems with case extraction. As Private John Newell (Everett 1930) has noted, carbines in Captain Thomas French's company were successfully put back into operation after removal of the stuck case, either by prying with a knife or by using French's .50/70 rifle ramrod. Newell is not explicit about the number of carbines that failed, although he says most in the company were affected." "Captain C.E. Dutton (1876) questioned thirty-seven officers about the 1876 campaign, not just the Battle of the Little Bighorn, and found that all had seen at least one example of extraction failure." "The archeological data provide more direct evidence to clarify further the role of extraction failure.............This yields an average of 5 percent as an overall failure rate........would mean about 30 of the total battle carbines would have been involved (10 on the Custer battlefield and 20 at Reno-Benteen)." Does this clarify the matter for you? Hunk |
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 18, 2009 6:35:20 GMT -6
If 5% is correct that could also mean that every carbine had a 1 in 20 failure rate. The carbines that were not serviceable probably had the head ripped off the case. The stuck shell extractor and rod were added to the Springfield Carbine shortly after the battle.
For you black rifle shooters that would mean a stuck cartridge with each magazine fired.
AZ Ranger
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 18, 2009 7:55:21 GMT -6
If true, it poses a problem: if the 7th were practiced in that firearm, they'd know and have trained to alleviate the issue. They were not and didn't. Reno also said the weapon loosened up after intense use. Do tell. During meaningful practice, you'd notice that, no? The point being those who prance about whining about the weaponry ignore the evidence the soldiers weren't trained remotely well enough, regardless of weaponry.
That, in any case, assumes the fouled ammunition evidence was obtained of a soldier in the correct carbine, but with Indians firing ammo in various arms, you cannot tell. Neither can you tell who fired it in what when, never mind at who.
Crook's guys, who used the same weapon 8 days previous, didn't seem to have this excuse, and the weapon continued fine for years now properly equipped and with brass cartridges.
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Post by conz on May 18, 2009 10:21:17 GMT -6
If true, it poses a problem: if the 7th were practiced in that firearm, they'd know and have trained to alleviate the issue. They were not and didn't. How very wrong. They all understood the issue, knew about it, and trained for it. They were very good at extracting stuck cartridges quickly with their small knives. Is there really any question about that? You have NO evidence at all, that as a group, these Soldiers weren't as trained as well in marksmanship as they needed to be. That should bring up another issue...if the Warriors were using many captured Trapdoors, what did THEY do when their cartridges jammed? Exactly right, and there is no reason to believe that there was any difference with the 7th Cavalry, as with the 2nd and 3rd Cavalries with Crook, don't you think? Clair |
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Post by twoscones on May 19, 2009 15:37:48 GMT -6
ACCORDING TO GENERALS GODFREY AND EDGERLY,IN THE 1926 BOOK THE STORY OF THE LITTLE BIG HORN"BY COLONEL W.A.GRAHAM, 30 TO 40 PERCENT OF THE TROOPS AT THE LBH WERE RAW RECRUITS. THIS WOULD BE FOR A LOT OF THEM THEIR FIRST AND LAST BATTLE.GODFREY WAS A CAPTAIN WITH TROOP "K" WITH BENTEEN AND EDGERLY WAS A 2ND LIUETENANT WITH "D"TROOP WITH BENTEEN ALSO.
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Post by markland on May 19, 2009 21:59:06 GMT -6
ACCORDING TO GENERALS GODFREY AND EDGERLY,IN THE 1926 BOOK THE STORY OF THE LITTLE BIG HORN"BY COLONEL W.A.GRAHAM, 30 TO 40 PERCENT OF THE TROOPS AT THE LBH WERE RAW RECRUITS. THIS WOULD BE FOR A LOT OF THEM THEIR FIRST AND LAST BATTLE.GODFREY WAS A CAPTAIN WITH TROOP "K" WITH BENTEEN AND EDGERLY WAS A 2ND LIUETENANT WITH "D"TROOP WITH BENTEEN ALSO. Two, that is incorrect insofar as the actual battle is concerned. Custer left most of his raw recruits at one of the column depots, Powder River or Yellowstone. Billy |
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Post by wolfgang911 on May 20, 2009 16:49:14 GMT -6
and now after all this startling mathematic theories on how many bullets VS how many dead indians : how many arrows do we need to count for 275 us army casualties ;D given the fact that an arrow is less fatal, less accurate, longer to charge, can break, can carry little (30 some) etc yep those NDN were as always superior fighters if in the open  and when not fighting opponents behind barricades forts or wagons or worse running into them while sleeping  |
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Post by wolfgang911 on May 20, 2009 16:52:23 GMT -6
you will observe over time that Conz is the self-appointed cheer leader for the 7th Cavalry ;D ;D ;D sorry a little easy open door but it did make me ;D |
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Post by markland on May 21, 2009 0:05:29 GMT -6
and now after all this startling mathematic theories on how many bullets VS how many dead indians : how many arrows do we need to count for 275 us army casualties ;D given the fact that an arrow is less fatal, less accurate, longer to charge, can break, can carry little (30 some) etc yep those NDN were as always superior fighters if in the open and when not fighting opponents behind barricades forts or wagons or worse running into them while sleeping Wolfie, while this doesn't take away from your overall argument, the Custer-Cluster casualties were something like 210 vs your 275. Billy |
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 21, 2009 5:33:46 GMT -6
There was a lot of arrows in the bodies also. At close quarters I would expect them to be very accurate and the rate of fire greater than a trooper's carbine.
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Post by crzhrs on May 21, 2009 6:28:31 GMT -6
I believe many of the arrows shot into the soldiers was after the battle as young warriors(?) went around to make sure soldiers were really dead or just for retaliation or vengeance.
I think many of the arrows fired doing the battle was mostly for keeping the soldiers pinned down while warriors infiltrated closer.
In addition out of the 1,500-2,000 warriors how many had reliable fire arms? Arrows may have been more plentiful than ammo, plus arrows could be shot from concealment and land wherever.
It must have been terrifying for the soldiers to have arrows raining down on them out of the blue (literally)!
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Post by twoscones on May 22, 2009 13:04:03 GMT -6
Billy i can find mention of stores being issued at yellowstone and rosebud but no mention of soldiers being replaced.Iwould be interested to hear where you found that information. regards twoscones
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