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Post by conz on May 22, 2009 15:25:31 GMT -6
Incidentally ran across this footnote in Stewart's Custer's Luck:
W.J.Ghent, "Varnum, Reno and the Little Big Horn," Winners of the West, April 30, 1936, declares categorically that the number of recruits in the regiment was shamelessly exaggerated to aid Major Reno in defending himself against the implied charge of incompetency at the Court of Inquiry in 1879. Ghent maintains that most of the recruits were left at the Powder River base camp. He says that in the Battle of the Little Big Horn River, Lieutenant Godfrey had only two recruits in his company, and that it is very unlikely that the other companies had more than that.
Maj. Peter Panzeri, in his brief on LBH, said: "A large contingent of [Terry's] command (five infantry companies and nearly 300 dismounted troopers and civilian employees) had been left far behind at the Powder River depot." Can't point you to the citation, however...probably a report.
Clair
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Post by George Mabry on May 23, 2009 7:34:41 GMT -6
That should bring up another issue...if the Warriors were using many captured Trapdoors, what did THEY do when their cartridges jammed? There were two types of stuck cartridges. The knife or cleaning rod method would only work if the entire cartridge was stuck in the barrel but sometimes all it did was pull the head of the cartridge off leaving the case body inside the chamber. This resulted in the same type jam that you’d get when the case would become stuck and the extractor would pull the head off leaving the body in the chamber. This “head separation” jam was commonly cleared by running a strip of rawhide down the length of the barrel. A knot is tied in one end and then pulled through the barrel from the muzzle end to the breach end. When the knot gets to the chamber it will snag on the casing that is still in there and it will come right out. I read somewhere that a long strip of leather with a knot in one end covered in gunshot residue was found at one of the Indian firing positions by one of the troopers after the battle and apparently the trooper knew what it was used for. I’ve used it myself and it works. I was shooting a particularly troublesome batch of reloads out of a Henry replica and about every 7 or 8 rounds I’d have a head separation when I tried to eject the round. I didn’t have any rawhide handy but I did have some parachute cord and it worked just fine. Of course it did take a minute or two and you had to have a cleaning rod or something akin to get the string down the barrel. I could see troopers in Reno’s defensive position using this method but not so much those men in Custer’s group. Anyhow, that’s how it’s done. George |
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Post by conz on May 23, 2009 12:09:25 GMT -6
Good poop, George, thanks...
I can see the Custer battalion men using this during the long, quieter, "skirmisher" phase of their battle.
During the close combat phase, only a few would have had the jams, and they would more often throw down their weapon and either grab another one on the ground in the area, or draw their pistol if the enemy was upon them. During this phase few Soldiers would have the opportunity to use their carbine more than a couple shots anyway, before it was time to throw it down and use your pistol or bowie knife.
The Soldier account is interesting in that it implies that some Warriors were well acquainted with the Springfield's cartridge problems and knew how, and were prepared to, clear it.
It also implies that EVERYONE knew what the problem was, had for a long time, and it was a normal thing that they were prepared to deal with. Not such a big deal.
Thanks,
Clair
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 25, 2009 6:40:23 GMT -6
Good poop, George, thanks... I can see the Custer battalion men using this during the long, quieter, "skirmisher" phase of their battle. During the close combat phase, only a few would have had the jams, and they would more often throw down their weapon and either grab another one on the ground in the area, or draw their pistol if the enemy was upon them. During this phase few Soldiers would have the opportunity to use their carbine more than a couple shots anyway, before it was time to throw it down and use your pistol or bowie knife. The Soldier account is interesting in that it implies that some Warriors were well acquainted with the Springfield's cartridge problems and knew how, and were prepared to, clear it. It also implies that EVERYONE knew what the problem was, had for a long time, and it was a normal thing that they were prepared to deal with. Not such a big deal. Thanks, Clair It was after the LBH that the carbine was modified (Model 1877)with a cleaning rod and stuck shell remover. You're not saying the Army knowingly sent them into battle without the improvements? I think the cartridge era was just underway especially for larger capacity (higher pressure) cartridges. You don't make mid production modifications to carbines only without a reason. The Springfield rifles were not modified since they had cleaning rods. The Indians or anyone given enough time can remove a stuck cartridge. If the figure is correct for 5% failure that is significant. Using a string down the barrel requires time and the barrel being vertical. Either is detrimental to speed and accuracy needed for well placed shots. I would guess the Indians were use to stuck cartridges before the Springfield got into their hands. They had 50-70, Henry's, 44-40 before the Springfields. The breech block issues could not be fixed in the field. PVT Thompson states he had a failure when shooting at an Indian. Failure to have clean ammunition is a break down in combat readiness from the NCO down. 5% extraction problems is huge if 20 rounds are to be fired. How long would it take to do a fine motor skill activity such as threading something down the barrel under combat conditions on a skirmish line. Even the knife removal takes time if the head does not come off the cartridge case. To put it in prospective the removal of troopers from being ready to shoot so they could work on their carbine would be greater than the casuality rate per round fired by the Indians. I have found nothing in the literature that states the 7th knew there was a 5% failure to extract rate for the carbine in the less than 2 years that they had them. Also I do not believe that Reno's 6 carbines that could not be fixed in the field were stuck cartridge problems. There is no evidence that they rapid fired 5 or 6 rounds and experienced those types of failures before LBH. Since there was modifications to both the rifle and the carbine in the breech block it would suggest that it was not discovered in production and testing. AZ Ranger |
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Post by twoscones on May 27, 2009 12:27:52 GMT -6
HELLO CLAIR. ACCORDING TO ROBERT KERSHAW IN RED SABBATH THE ONLY TRAINING THE 7TH CAVALRY HAD WAS TO FIRE 5 ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION THE PREVIOUS YEAR AND TO LEARN PARADE GROUND MARCHING ,NOTHING ABOUT FIGHTING INDIANS. IF YOU WOULD LIKE A COPY OF HIS BOOK, LEAVE YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL SEND ONE TO YOU. I AM IMPARTIAL OVER THE LITTLE BIG HORN BUT JUST LIKE TO ARGUE OVER IT. REGARDS TWOSCONES.
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Post by twoscones on May 27, 2009 12:40:33 GMT -6
HELLO AZRANGER. IF A CARTRIDGE STUCK IN YOUR RIFLE WHEN A WHOLE LOT OF ANGRY INDIANS WERE CHARGING AT YOU IT WOULD PUT AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON THE PROCEEDINGS THE DECIDING FEATURE IS "GIVEN ENOUGH TIME" WHICH UNFORTUNATELY WAS NOT AVAILABLE. REGARDS TWOSCONES.
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Post by crzhrs on May 27, 2009 12:51:21 GMT -6
2-Scones:
If you are giving out books include me!
PS: Anybody know just how much cleaning of weapons were done while on the march to the LBH? I believe they were marching for several weeks and a weapon not cleaned would be a factor if guns jammed.
Crzhrs
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Post by bc on May 27, 2009 14:04:12 GMT -6
PS: Anybody know just how much cleaning of weapons were done while on the march to the LBH? I believe they were marching for several weeks and a weapon not cleaned would be a factor if guns jammed. Crzhrs Don't know but they had to do some cleaning. The steel on those guns was not blued back then. They rusted very easy just being out on a rainy or humid day. They had to keep them well oiled. Those that have those rifles today can verify this. Don't know how much rain they got prior to the 25th but it rained the night of the 25th. I suspect Reno and Benteen were running into those issues. I think that old powder left a lot of crud in the barrels that would have to be cleaned periodically. Even the powder we use today necessitates cleaning and oiling after shooting. We had a scheduled firing last month with George Elmore's rifles he has collected through the NPS. We moved inside and couldn't fire them because of the cloudy, rainy day. Then he would have to clean off the rust. He had about a dozen old rifle and pistols including the springfield. bc |
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Post by conz on May 27, 2009 15:27:47 GMT -6
HELLO CLAIR. ACCORDING TO ROBERT KERSHAW IN RED SABBATH THE ONLY TRAINING THE 7TH CAVALRY HAD WAS TO FIRE 5 ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION THE PREVIOUS YEAR AND TO LEARN PARADE GROUND MARCHING ,NOTHING ABOUT FIGHTING INDIANS. IF YOU WOULD LIKE A COPY OF HIS BOOK, LEAVE YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL SEND ONE TO YOU. I AM IMPARTIAL OVER THE LITTLE BIG HORN BUT JUST LIKE TO ARGUE OVER IT. REGARDS TWOSCONES. Hi ts...I do like Kershaw's book, because the British usually evaluate military history better than most.<g> Kershaw gets lots of things right, and some things wrong, and this is clearly one of them. The 7th Cavalry was a Regular Army professional unit, with NCOs and officers who well knew their trade. So you would have to at least suspect that they knew how they needed to train their men. The only issue we really argue about around here is whether they had enough ammo and time to do that training their officers well knew was required, and these issues can be accessed in the "cavalry training" thread on this board. My position is that the 7th Cavalry was quite well trained and experienced, and certainly as well trained as required to perform its duties of that day. Another position of mine is that nothing that happened detrimental to the 7th Cavalry at LBH was the result of inadquate training, or inadequate weapons. It happened due to other causes. Clair |
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 27, 2009 21:07:12 GMT -6
HELLO AZRANGER. IF A CARTRIDGE STUCK IN YOUR RIFLE WHEN A WHOLE LOT OF ANGRY INDIANS WERE CHARGING AT YOU IT WOULD PUT AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON THE PROCEEDINGS THE DECIDING FEATURE IS "GIVEN ENOUGH TIME" WHICH UNFORTUNATELY WAS NOT AVAILABLE. REGARDS TWOSCONES. That is my point. AZ Ranger |
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Post by sherppa on Jun 5, 2009 22:07:16 GMT -6
Black powder is extremely corrosive and requires that cleaning be done at every opportunity. It also draws moisture like a sponge.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Jun 10, 2009 15:37:04 GMT -6
Behind the whole "did the springfields jam" issue is how to find an excuse for the disaster, how many rounds did they lose and how much time did they spend working their guns panicking with loads of indians around.  pff just excuses ;D! We can also make it worse for the 7th looking at the indian side : If it rained on the 25th how was the quality during the fight of the quiver, the bow strings(!), the feathers and worse the backing of some rawhide bows... how about that hey? Anyway : if the 7th had run into the same number but well prepared to battle group of indians with all ceremonies and paintings done and all arms fixed ready for combat with the same time as the 7th had... we could add benteen and reno's troups into the fiasco (fiesta  )! Now they were just fighting 'hurry up, they're coming forget your blue paint use mine's' indians... HOW WOULD THINGS HAVE BEEN IF ALL INDIANS WERE ALL PREPARED AND GALLOPING INTO FIGHT AS THE US CAVALRY WAS NOT CARING FOR HORSES WOMEN AND CHILDREN (in that order) As long as they were no in their tepees with women and children, NO WAY a lakota, blue cloud or tsitsitstas warrior, born on a horse and living for raiding and hunting was an equal match for a raw or unraw recruit from whatever city in europe or the US. tsssss the gun o dear jammed what a poor excuse for the 7th nostalgics  yes and my arrow glue was not dry yet either  |
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Post by markland on Jun 10, 2009 17:16:15 GMT -6
Behind the whole "did the springfields jam" issue is how to find an excuse for the disaster, how many rounds did they lose and how much time did they spend working their guns panicking with loads of indians around. pff just excuses ;D! Err, Wolfie, the simple matter is that the results were due to too many damned Indians. My understanding is that it rained late in the evening/night, too late to have made any difference whatsoever in the fights. Wolfie, simple speculation based upon beating your favorite drum. If the Seventh had divided its forces the same way, no matter how well prepared the Indians were, the end results would likely have been the same. I'm obviously missing something here. |
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Post by conz on Jun 11, 2009 6:56:35 GMT -6
A young, inexperienced Warrior from the backwoods of cottonwood coulees, is no match for an experienced American Soldier, schooled in the Art of War, marksmanship, and equitation.
Clair
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 11, 2009 8:02:42 GMT -6
It would be interesting to know what the young inexperienced warrior thought of the experienced warrior compared to the experienced American trooper.
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pff just excuses ;D!
)!
