Custer at MTC ford

[conz]

Attached to this determination is, of course, what was Custer thinking at the time, and did his plans change after seeing the ford site, or not?

Clair

[conz]

To work out the timing of Yates riding down to MTC ford, we should consider that Crazy Horse and Co rode intially to Reno's fight. They got in near the end of it...some, like Bray, I believe think that it was Crazy Horse's arrival that inspired Reno to abandon the woods and run for the hills.

If this occured about fifteen minutes prior to Reno arriving on top of the bluffs at around 4:00pm, then Crazy Horse departed from behind the village to Reno's woods shortly after 3:30. If Yates was anywhere in the lower part of MTC CH would have detoured east, and not been in the Reno fight at all, I would say.

So Yates can't get close to the MTC ford in the 3:30 to 3:40 timeframe...probably the earliest he can get there is 3:45, just missing CH's mass of mounted dust heading south...I'm sure he could see that.

For some reason it is Two Moons' Cheyennes that get credit for getting to the ford first (after perhaps some Warriors either put up a small ford defense or screened familes coming back down MTC after fleeing up that coulee from Reno's attack).

Initial heavy skirmishing at the MTC ford would be between these Cheyennes and Yate's E and F Cos as early as 3:50 or so, which could be heard from Reno's direction once their own heavy firing died down about 4:00 pm.

The heavy fighting here may have convinced Custer that he had to find a crossing further downstream if he was to charge to Reno's fight.

Clair

[mwkeogh]

conz said:

To work out the timing of Yates riding down to MTC ford, we should consider that Crazy Horse and Co rode intially to Reno's fight. They got in near the end of it...some, like Bray, I believe think that it was Crazy Horse's arrival that inspired Reno to abandon the woods and run for the hills.

If this occured about fifteen minutes prior to Reno arriving on top of the bluffs at around 4:00pm, then Crazy Horse departed from behind the village to Reno's woods shortly after 3:30. If Yates was anywhere in the lower part of MTC CH would have detoured east, and not been in the Reno fight at all, I would say.

So Yates can't get close to the MTC ford in the 3:30 to 3:40 timeframe...probably the earliest he can get there is 3:45, just missing CH's mass of mounted dust heading south...I'm sure he could see that.

For some reason it is Two Moons' Cheyennes that get credit for getting to the ford first (after perhaps some Warriors either put up a small ford defense or screened familes coming back down MTC after fleeing up that coulee from Reno's attack).

Initial heavy skirmishing at the MTC ford would be between these Cheyennes and Yate's E and F Cos as early as 3:50 or so, which could be heard from Reno's direction once their own heavy firing died down about 4:00 pm.

The heavy fighting here may have convinced Custer that he had to find a crossing further downstream if he was to charge to Reno's fight.

Clair

I think you summarize this very logical model quite well Clair. The only area I would disagree with you on is that I now believe that it was Keogh's battalion, not Yates, which was sent down to attempt a crossing at MTF. The body of an I trooper (possibly Sgt. Bustard) and his horse would confirm this view, as would the descriptions of Pvt. Korn and Peter Thompson, who allegedly followed his Co. C (which we know was attached to Keogh's battalion) down to the ford area before turning back. Somewhere along the line tho, I believe the Grey Horse Troop was sent down to cover their retreat from the ford area, and this was the reason many though it was Yates Battalion down there. It is interesting to note that L Company was assigned to Yates Battalion, not Keogh's.

[conz]

mwkeogh said:

The only area I would disagree with you on is that I now believe that it was Keogh's battalion, not Yates, which was sent down to attempt a crossing at MTF. The body of an I trooper (possibly Sgt. Bustard) and his horse would confirm this view, as would the descriptions of Pvt. Korn and Peter Thompson, who allegedly followed his Co. C (which we know was attached to Keogh's battalion) down to the ford area before turning back. Somewhere along the line tho, I believe the Grey Horse Troop was sent down to cover their retreat from the ford area, and this was the reason many though it was Yates Battalion down there. It is interesting to note that L Company was assigned to Yates Battalion, not Keogh's.

That's possible, but this model is somewhat diluted what with Yates and E/F bodies found together on the other end of Battle Ridge.

Why didn't Yates' hold Calhoun Hill and block the ford and Keogh go north with Custer?

Looks to me like Keogh with C, L, and I moved up Luce and Nye and over to Calhoun Hill while Yates with E/F went down the coulee to the ford with Custer. Yates' tried to hold the ford, but couldn't, so moved up the ridge where Keogh's elements covered him. At this point Natives are pouring both across the ford and down from Weir Point.

Now it is possible that Yates had C Co with him too, but they were the rear guard and were left with Keogh for more power as Custer took Yates north to find another crossing.

Clair

[fred]

You guys have gotta be makin' this stuff up!

I'm going to watch "Son of the Morning Star" so I can get a renewed dose of reality.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[wild]

The only area I would disagree with you on is that I now believe that it was Keogh's battalion, not Yates, which was sent down to attempt a crossing at MTF
Could you suggest under what orders Keogh was acting and could you outline what 120 troopers could hope to achieve by crossing the LBH and sauntering into the village?

[mwkeogh]

wild said:

The only area I would disagree with you on is that I now believe that it was Keogh's battalion, not Yates, which was sent down to attempt a crossing at MTF
Could you suggest under what orders Keogh was acting and could you outline what 120 troopers could hope to achieve by crossing the LBH and sauntering into the village?

Lets keep in mind that Major Reno also believed that Keogh along with I and C Companies attempted to cross at MTF. (He also felt that at least part of E Company was with them there as well, which supports my theory very nicely). It is important to remember that throughout the entire march from Fort A. Lincoln, I, C & B were part of Keogh's battalion while F, E & L were part of Yates battalion.

Now to answer your question Wild, it is my belief that I and C Company (and later E) were sent to MTF to attempt a crossing there to establish a bridgehead on the other side. Once done, Custer would bring down F & L who were kept back on East Ridge to cover Keogh's rear by skirmishing with Wolf Tooths warparty while keeping in view of both the valley below (with MTF) and the backtrail to Reno Hill (for the possible arrival of Benteen's battalion). Once Keogh was able to cross over and establish a bridgehead, Custer would move down with his remaining 3 companies and cross over. I believe he did in fact move E down to Keogh's support at the ford, while sending Yates or Calhoun to hold Luce Ridge while the other remained on East Ridge. Of course, once Custer was informed of Reno's retreat from the valley (by Bouyer who was watching from the bluff's well north of Weir Point), this changed everything and made the attempt to cross at this juncture moot.

[conz]

I see that Doran makes two citations I hadn't seen before out of Camp's notes:

1. Edward McClernand: "He saw a regular set of 'Double Fours' going down MTC to Ford B." This means two companies moved abreast, implying right down to the ford.

2. Charles DeRudio: "Saw Custer's trail (double set of fours) down Medicine Tail Coulee and also he saw the dead horse barricade on Custer Knoll." Simply verifies the formation, and almost certainly that two companies made these tracks...no more, no less.

I'm still not convinced that these fours were Keogh's, because I think that L Co could have easily been given to Keogh (being senior) after Keogh lost B Co, leaving Yates with only two companies, but this is the first evidence I've seen of cavalry formation tracks going right down to Ford B.

Clair

[bc]

conz said:

I see that Doran makes two citations I hadn't seen before out of Camp's notes:

1. Edward McClernand: "He saw a regular set of 'Double Fours' going down MTC to Ford B." This means two companies moved abreast, implying right down to the ford.

First I've heard of McClernand. What can you tell me about who and where he was? I assume he is making a post battle observation.

[fred]

bc--

2LT Edward John McClernand—b. Jacksonville, IL, 1849. Acting Engineer Officer with COL Gibbon's command.

*Detached from Co. G, 2nd Cavalry. Official itinerist. USMA graduate of 1870. Received MH in fighting against Nez Percé in 1877. In 1879, he was assigned as an instructor of tactics at West Point. Served in the Spanish-American War in Cuba and the Philippines. Retired as a BG in 1912.
• His father was MG John A. McClernand who served under Grant in the Civil War.
• Wrote a book, With Indian and The Buffalo in Montana, 1870-1878. Glendale, CA: Arthur H. Clark Co., 1969.

Specifics of his military career: Cadet USMA 1Sep1866 (36th in class); 2LT 2nd Cav 15Jun1870; 1LT 9May1879; CPT 24Mar1890; LTC Ass’t Adjutant General of Volunteers 9May1898; COL 44th U. S. Volunteer Inf. 17Aug1899; honorably discharged from Volunteers 30Jun1901; MAJ 12th Cav 2Feb1901; assigned to Adjutant General Department 28Feb1901; bvt 1LT 27Feb1890 for gallantry in the pursuit of Indians and in action against them in the Bear Paw Mountains, MT, 30Sep1877; awarded medal of honor 27Nov1894 for most distinguished gallantry in action against hostile Nez Percé Indians at Bear Paw Mountain, MT, 30Sep1877 in command of a troop attacking a band of hostiles and conducting the combat with excellent skill and boldness while 2LT 2nd Cav.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

McClernand seems to have changed his mind on this in later years. I don't know the date of the Lilly interview cited by Doran; however, in his 1927 article for The Cavalry Journal, McClernand says:
"He [Custer] did not reach the river, but that he did enter the coulee [MTC] and turn toward the river [his italics] was shown by the positions of the dead; so that there is apparently only to decide whether the positions of the bodies marked the farthest advance toward the Little Big Horn.
Gen. Godfrey holds, after careful talks in later years with some of his former enemies, that Custer was never nearer the river than the position on the ridge where he was found, and I doubt if he was any nearer than where the extreme right of his small line rested; but I am still of the opinion that he was farther down the coulee than where we found the remains of Calhoun's and Keogh's troops. The trails I saw and the dispositions indicated by the positions of the dead men and horses incline me to believe that he went father down this coulee with the intention of crossing; but was deterred therefrom by the Indians as they commenced to arrive in great numbers after having temporarily disposed of Reno."

From Custer Engages the Hostiles, p. 38. Seems whatever tracks he saw didn't go quite to the river.

[fred]

Michno's contention is that Custer only used MTC from the confluence of Cedar and MTC, up to the point where he could climb the bluffs to Luce Ridge (what we now call Luce, not the old East Ridge) and that from there, he went toward Ford B using the ridges. Militarily, this makes sense. That would show tracks part of the way down MTC.

It is my contention that that is probably what happened and Custer then went to the small bluff overlooking the ford. He probably put E Company in the flats by the ford-- that would jive with Indian testimony. Trumpeter Dose was later found in that general vicinity and any tracks would have been obscured by the hundreds of Indian riders who crossed there, both ways.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[fred]

One other thing...

There is also no reason why Custer/Yates could not have traveled the ridges to that bluff overlooking Ford B, while Smith and the Gray Horse Troop traveled in MTC, the two commands parallel and watching one another.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[fred]

Wait a sec...

I just read Elisabeth's last post here... again. Are we all talking about the same thing? Does McClernand's 1927 quote specify MTC or was he referring to the South Skirmish Line? And Godfrey's latter quote, as well? "... Custer was never nearer the river than the position on the ridge where he was found..." Something is odd, especially when he starts referring to the "extreme right of his small line..." and "... positions of the dead men..." The only dead man found even remotely near Ford B was Dose. Finley was much further up Deep Coulee and Butler was on the ridge.

What am I missing here?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[harpskiddie]

Oh, the opportunity wasted!!

Gordie
MC