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Post by herosrest on May 1, 2023 11:30:59 GMT -6
Here we are then. Mayday, mayday....... I had great plans and weather is reasonable and changeable but sunny to windy and wet, so, in the end I trimmed a bush. The Red Robbin hedge (Photinia x fraseri) looks magnificent coming into flower but the leaf growth has exploded into untidy. Nice job. Snip, snip, snip..... aaaagh, that's better. Now, could there possibly be evidence or record by participants indicating a Cavalry withdrawl from the river at the mouth of Medicine Tail Coulee or Deep Coulee? Hmmm.... you know, there is a tun of it all wriggling and flipping about trying to jump back into the river. Of course, if'n it does nee sit well or at all with your particular theory of the thing then things go strange rather quickly. That's OK though - theory is theory is theory. I understand that it can sit very well on morning toast, hold the pork and beans. Moving beyond participant accounts, here ( King 1890) is one take on events and one with which I have become tediously fond. King was 5th Cavalry and ( noted into notable) for a number of reasons and achievments including romanticising the western novel, beyond the pulp type dime publications for which Frederick Whittaker is known. He did of course write a well thought of book on the nuts and bolts of Civil War Volunteer Cavalry which was on the shelf, or in the trunks, of many in the Army, and edit Army & Navy Journal publication. In 1890, with the battle a distant memory but for a minor Major knit-picking at Custer by Reno affair during his demise, the thing was litteraly dying down an forgotten as the senior participants passed away. Unfortunately, Charles King assessed the battle and published THIS fairly reasonable insight for Harpers. A bit flowery but it's not a bush and he was of a literary nature. Well, off it went again - King's article ticked off Custer's wife to some degree and she poked, prodded, pushed and tickled Godfrey into his opus of 1892. That's what happened, Godfrey responded for Mrs. Custer to the mild criticisms of Custer made by King. There was no going back. Terry died at end of year and a daft Parson giving the funeral service lit the fuse under Patterson Hughes and here we all are wondering what we wonder, if we do. Here is King's map, 'cos a thousands words cannot inject what it does. link. That was 1890, and King should not be dismissed lightly. Now, Curley's interviews with W.M. Camp are 1910ish. King was 1890. Godfrey 1892. Several others looked at the thing such as McLoughlin and so forth, and with never really a difference other than that between King and Godfrey. This was kinda at the root of the differences of opinion over the route of Custer's march from Reno Ck. into Medicine Tail. That was finally resolved by W.A. Grahamin 1953, with information from Charles A. Varnum which indicated on a battlefield map, precisely where the grey hores troops he sighted, were. That was at Weir's Peak. Varnum saw them ride over the preak now named for Benton Weir. Therefore the companies with Custer did not ride down Cedar Coulee and this idea is simply a myth. Custer took the shortest (quickest route) into Medicine Tail's coulee. Edward S. Curtis's account of the battle covered progress to Greasy Grass Hill, before he flunked out of what he should have published but instead worried himself and others stupid over - but that's a different issue and for a bit later maybe. Am I selling pumpkins to witches? No. Just explaining a bit of the history, of the history.
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Post by herosrest on May 1, 2023 11:47:38 GMT -6
we know that today, echelon is a formation adopted by US Military through SEAL teams right on up to mobile brigade advances but, when in the name of Larry was this novel and extremely effective method of manouvre discovered? I'm damned if I'm plowing through Sun Tzu again........... it messes with my mind!
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Post by johnson1941 on May 1, 2023 12:50:25 GMT -6
""THE RIDE BACK LOOKING FOR BENTEEN 1908…
Martin started back on trail before got up the hill (that is up to high point where whole command had halted) he heard heavy firing in the direction of his right. It might also have been Reno’s fire which he heard as that would have been to his right. He afterward supposed was at Ford B. After this he met Boston Custer going to join the command.
When Martin got to top of ridge he looked down in village and saw Indians charging like swarm of bees toward the ford, waving buffalo hides. At the same time he saw Custer retreating up the open country in the direction of the battlefield. (He did not tell this at the Reno court of inquiry because he was not asked the question. He thinks that in Reno court of inquiry it was not desired that he should tell all he knew and said that afterward he never was invited by officers to discuss what he knew of the battle and never volunteered to do so.) The Indians were firing straggling shots. About this time Martin was fired on by Indians in the bluffs between him and river and they hit his horse on hip, and blood spattered...
1910…“I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across to the high ground. When I got up on the elevation I looked behind and saw Custer’s command over on the flat and Indians over in the village riding toward the river and waving buffalo hides. The battalion appeared at this time to be falling back from the river.""
Harper, Gordon. The Fights on the Little Horn Companion: Gordon Harper's Full Appendices and Bibliography (p. 1273). Casemate Publishers (Ignition). Kindle Edition.
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Post by herosrest on May 1, 2023 13:10:16 GMT -6
Yeah....... Trumpeter Martin. It's interesting working with his travel in time-lines. It's certainly interesting that he didn't have a watch and that his estimate of journey to MTC and back to Reno Hill, in the area called 3411 by some, and what I call Benteen's G Spot, took 15 minutes. I'm wresting with a more subtle confusion, at the moment. This link could ruin your day. Lineage, people wanted royal bloodline.... bof.
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Post by herosrest on May 1, 2023 15:27:30 GMT -6
The duration of Trumpeter Martin's ride, from Benteen's 'G' on his battle map, to MtC (6-800 yards from the river), back to Benteen's 'G', was 15 minutes and Martin continued to a spot about a mile from Ford A to meet Benteen and return to Reno Hill[ say back to Benteen's 'G'. So, we know the maximum amount of time Reno spent skirmishing (give or take the odd jammed carbine). It's pretty simple calculation and we have E.S. Curtis's account of the ride over Custer's route and N.A. Miles as well, to help nail the horshoes firmly to the hooves. re: my previous, I know English history is not the done thing here but.... it's fun - linkRegards.
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Post by crzhrs on May 2, 2023 8:12:40 GMT -6
The best source for primary info is from the RCOI (Reno Court of Inquiry)
Granted it's three years after the battle and witnesses may have time to reconsider the "facts" and maybe not all the right questions were asked but it's as close as we have for what each participant witness and or heard.
Martin at the hearing stated his English was not very good and it was probably even more not very good in 1876.
One example was at the hearing he stated he saw Crook/Custer discussing something and was called over by Crook to deliver a note.
Years later he stated he was given the note directly from Custer. Probably wanted to inflate his importance as the last person to talk to Custer!
This is just a small sample of how people can alter, change or inflate their importance in a historic event.
In addition years later when individuals were interviewed there was no one to counter or challenge what was said as in the RCOI.
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Post by herosrest on May 2, 2023 11:27:16 GMT -6
The best source for primary info is from the RCOI (Reno Court of Inquiry) Granted it's three years after the battle and witnesses may have time to reconsider the "facts" and maybe not all the right questions were asked but it's as close as we have for what each participant witness and or heard. Martin at the hearing stated his English was not very good and it was probably even more not very good in 1876. One example was at the hearing he stated he saw Crook/Custer discussing something and was called over by Crook to deliver a note. Years later he stated he was given the note directly from Custer. Probably wanted to inflate his importance as the last person to talk to Custer! This is just a small sample of how people can alter, change or inflate their importance in a historic event. In addition years later when individuals were interviewed there was no one to counter or challenge what was said as in the RCOI. Just an idle thought regarding challenging Chicago testimonies; no-one or very few, had a clue what was said at the hearing until Ghent and Graham got involved in the 1920's and then the copies were rarer than goldfish with teeth. That was then and for a very long time. Idle thought. It was a different World and different awareness. No one then could imagine what is available today.
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Post by herosrest on May 2, 2023 11:31:12 GMT -6
In regards the buffalo skin waving, I seem to remember that the very first account by Sitting Bull in Canada mentioned this in the camp although the account doesn't seem to have published until many years later. This was the Custer was a fool who charged to his death - we ambushed him; account of the battle. Rain in the Face gave a similar thing.
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Post by herosrest on May 2, 2023 11:34:23 GMT -6
I have plodded into Gray's work for the E Troop identifications data with some success but not the definitive bulls-eye, yet. His appendices include the basic data he assembled and assessed for the chapters. If it wasn't him, it might have been Harper. His appendices are an entire book. Hi ho....... I bumped into an old friend - littlebighorn.info/Booklets/For-the-Record.pdf
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Post by herosrest on May 2, 2023 15:21:55 GMT -6
Again from Fred: Deep Ravine (8 men from Company E): 1. 1SG Frederick Hohmeyer 2. SGT John S. Ogden 3. CPL George C. Brown 4. CPL Albert H. Meyer 5. PVT Richard Farrell 6. PVT William Huber 7. PVT Andy Knecht 8. PVT William H. Rees
Smith was the only E Company member found of LSH. Few people know this, but before the visitors centre and the National Cemetery were put in place, there were six markers on Cemetery Ridge. I believe all six were E Company men, especially since HQ personnel were accounted for and F Company was likely sent into the basin area. Then we have this:
1SG Ryan (M): 18 or 20 men of E Company. CPT Benteen (H): 22 bodies. CPT Moylan (A): 20-odd bodies of E Company. LT Godfrey (K): 28 men of Smith’s troop. LT Hare: 28 bodies of Smith’s troop in a coulee in skirmish order. SGT Kanipe (C): rode along the edge of a deep gully and counted 28 bodies in the ravine. LT Richard Thompson (6th Infantry): maybe 34 bodies in a gully [Camp]. LT Edward Maguire: drew a map showing 28 bodies in one particular ravine. LT Edward McClernand (2nd Cavalry): 28 bodies of Smith’s troop were found at the lower end of the line in a deep coulee. COL John Gibbon (7th Infantry): 40 or 50 bodies were found in a valley running perpendicular to the river. LT/Dr. Holmes Paulding: 28 bodies found in a deep ravine by the scouts.
These 28 + the 6 = 34. There were 36 enlisted personnel in E Company. We also know only something between 6 and 12 bodies were found between LSH and its ridge line and the ravine. McDougall said there were only a few bodies between the deep gully and where Custer lay. He was sure there were less than twelve and might not have been more than six. I would venture to say the missing 2 were part of those few. That accounts for all of E Company.Ian For those who enjoy their data with anecdotes and possibly the cherry topping also, relative to the thirty men whom Benteen noted were'nt found or buried (in obvious consequence) - because thirty men were not missing, the established packtrain numbers in 1879, were reported as follows (atChicago): ' Fifth. In the meantime Captain Benteen, having carried out, as far as was practicable, the spirit of his orders, turned in the direction of the route taken by the remainder of the regiment, and reaching the trail followed it to near the crossing of the Little Big Horn, reaching there about the same time Reno's command was crossing the river in retreat lower down, and finally joined his battalion with that of Reno, on the hill. Forty minutes or one hour later the pack-train, which had been left behind on the trail by the rapid movement of the command and the delays incident to its march, joined the united command, which then consisted of seven companies, together with about thirty (30) or thirty-five (35) men belonging to the companies under Colonel Custer.In regards the tabulation of E Company's total losses on Custer Field; as I am hunting up, no more than ten were identified. The six men represented by supposed markers on the terrain of the natioal cemetery at the Old Stone House - NEVER EXISTED - and are a myth of quite ridiculously labyrinthine snakes and ladders. The standing markers placed by Capt. Sweet and 25th Infantry in 1890, were properly and fully accounted for in the 1891 survey of the markers by R.B. Marshall. There were none placed on the ground where the Old Stone House was later erected - what a lovely word. None, that is. No six markers related to the fighting of 25th June 1876, ever stood on or near the site of the later Surerintendent's home. It didn't happen. Advance Party and New Markers - all this midwifery for Wagner to deliver birth of totally accounting for E Troops men. Sorry..... I didn't buy it when it was going on, and still do not now. The troops in the ravine were identified as Troop E men how? An NCO or two were identified. There were no Officers with those men since one was never located and the other lay towards Custer Hill. If Company E were engaged then they were dismounted and their horses might very well be in cover in a Deep Ravine. That would be dumb as ducks but so is organised warfare. Indians did not charge into the teeth of the guns. Far too sensible. When you read about such daring do, something else was going on, like, attacking led horses removed from their riders on skirmish lines.
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Post by herosrest on May 2, 2023 15:38:54 GMT -6
I qualify the duck comment, thus. 800 billions at current prices builds 2,666,666 average homes.
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Post by herosrest on May 3, 2023 4:46:51 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on May 3, 2023 6:08:00 GMT -6
Rain In The Face's Story...
"... Then we showed our line in front, and the long swords charged. They reeled under our fire and started to fall back. Our young men behind them opened fire. Then we saw some officers talking and pointing. Don't know who they were, for they all looked alike. I didn't see Long Yellow Hair then or afterward. We heard the Rees singing their death song -- they knew we had them. All dismounted, and every fourth man held the others' ponies.
Then we closed all around them. We rushed like a wave does at the sand out there (the ocean beach) and shot the pony holders and stampeded the ponies by waving our blankets in their faces. Our squaws caught them, for they were tired out."
Gall...
"They fought on foot. One man held the horses while the others shot the guns. We tried to kill the holders, and then by waving blankets and shouting we scared the horses down that coulee, where the Cheyenne women caught them."
Daniel White Thunder...
“As soon as the soldiers on foot had marched over the ridge,” the Yanktonais Daniel White Thunder later told a white missionary, he and the Indians with him “stampeded the horses...by waving their blankets and making a terrible noise.”
She Walks with Her Shawl...
"One soldier was holding 8 or 10 horses. An Indian waved his blanket and scared all the horses. They got away from the troopers..."
Huh - - more blanket waving indians...who knows? .
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Post by noggy on May 3, 2023 7:00:29 GMT -6
Rain In The Face's Story... "... Then we showed our line in front, and the long swords charged. They reeled under our fire and started to fall back. Our young men behind them opened fire. Then we saw some officers talking and pointing. Don't know who they were, for they all looked alike. I didn't see Long Yellow Hair then or afterward. We heard the Rees singing their death song -- they knew we had them. All dismounted, and every fourth man held the others' ponies. Then we closed all around them. We rushed like a wave does at the sand out there (the ocean beach) and shot the pony holders and stampeded the ponies by waving our blankets in their faces. Our squaws caught them, for they were tired out." Gall... "They fought on foot. One man held the horses while the others shot the guns. We tried to kill the holders, and then by waving blankets and shouting we scared the horses down that coulee, where the Cheyenne women caught them." Daniel White Thunder... “As soon as the soldiers on foot had marched over the ridge,” the Yanktonais Daniel White Thunder later told a white missionary, he and the Indians with him “stampeded the horses...by waving their blankets and making a terrible noise.” She Walks with Her Shawl... "One soldier was holding 8 or 10 horses. An Indian waved his blanket and scared all the horses. They got away from the troopers..." Huh - - more blanket waving indians...who knows? . I'm no expert on skinned buffalos, but I would say there is a huge difference between a good old blanket and a buffalo skin/robe as far as weight goes. I took it as that was what Rosebud reacted too. During the Summer time, no warrior riding around and camping would drag along a heavy buffalo hide, a thin blanket would be enough and more practical. Two things about the rest here, is that 1. TITF's story/stories confuse me a little. At some point he seems to describe the Custer part of the fight, yet he's hearing Ree death songs. 2. Michno has made a good case for being sceptical when it comes to Gall's role in the battle. That being said, I have no doubt (light) blankets and yelling were used to scare the cavalry horses, by no means. Noggy
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Post by johnson1941 on May 3, 2023 8:29:59 GMT -6
Lol! Martini is Italian - what does he know about Buffalo hides?
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