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Post by herosrest on Jul 18, 2023 18:30:27 GMT -6
Go at Gray with an open mind and a blank one. There's something almost exciting as you get drawn into his reasoning until its arrogance and flaws bomb you. You get streams of issues and problems into overload if carrying your own battle baggage into his. It is a good read and his style of writing works well. Gray did a lot of good work and research and assembled it well but............ it backfired beautifully. In some quarters he is credited with the 'Split Wing' theory that caused quite a flap but it is not his idea or creation. He simply pushed into limelight and it seems to float some boats.
It's the same with Wagner III. You simply have to read it. I criticised its flaws and was repeatedly told I hadn't read it which of course is code. Code for you didn't understand..... Ho hum. Fred worked not far from Whittaker's grave..... I'm sure he popped in their now and again.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 18, 2023 18:51:09 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 18, 2023 19:42:48 GMT -6
Thanks for the Gray take...Im camping this weekend - maybe a little Gray on my kindle? Hmmm.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 19, 2023 5:55:29 GMT -6
Like I said, empty your mind of the battle and enjoy it.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 19, 2023 6:44:20 GMT -6
Peregrine Falcons high. I've just seen the parent birds overhead together............ which means the chicks are fledged. Live link
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 19, 2023 11:33:23 GMT -6
[quote author="@ johnson1941" source="/post/125076/thread" timestamp="1689677099"]Curley " Custer made a brief survey of the situation and turned and rode to his command. He did not ask Bouyer or me about the country - we rode following the creek as you know - we were all the time going away from the valley. We finally came out at the Creek - Medicine Tail Creek..." Yep - seems Custer did quite a few things that many today, with well-detailed hindsight of course, wouldn't have done. Oh Well - he did lose after all - badly. If one believes Curely (and why not ?- him vs other scouts on who was where along the trail)- he has a well detailed narrative of Custer's trail and a huge portion of the fight (best viewed in Custer in '76). americanindian.net/custer/files/page_155.htmlSeems I should read Gray - just for the amusement! [/quote] johnson1941
Grey's methodology in building his timeline was to take known rates of travel and then place the accounts that fit it in his timeline. He excluded accounts that didn't fit. He used four mph for Custer moving down Reno Creek. So you would have to believe that his concern for the village movement wasn't real and that he moved slower than the five mph walk speed. A better method was used by Fred Wagoneer in that he used the accounts to build his timeline. His movement down Reno Creek was about eight mph, in the middle of a trot speed. That speed is the top speed of a pack train animal and can be found in the literature.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 19, 2023 13:57:43 GMT -6
Cheers - AZ, Thanks for the details - makes sense!
Ah well - Gray isn't on Kindle...so I'll very likely pass, and contnue with Wagoneer.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 19, 2023 14:06:12 GMT -6
JH41, THe Grey book is a good read though, it was the first proper Custer book that I ever read and I found it an eye oppener.
Ian
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 21, 2023 15:06:29 GMT -6
I thought I had posted the grey time line up on this board. We are 200 miles away from home at the moment so if any request to post it again then it will have to wait till Tuesday.
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Jul 21, 2023 15:26:05 GMT -6
AZR gave a decent outline of Gray's methodology but how did he put his scenario together with Custer absenting the bluffs towards MTC, a minute or two before the valley retreat started their hump out of the fight?
Either Martin was just telling rubbish, or a good number of battle studies have been and their reasoning produced this period of delay or delays in and around MTC which count out to an hour and more. Curtis rode the battlefield as have other modern day researchers and guess what?
Whichever route you ride at a clip, you hit MTC within five or so minutes. That is attack time... troops headed into contact, up for it, and commited to battle. The valley fight was a shoot and scoot exercise of limited duration. Gray did not begin his timing outline at Busby, or Halt one or anything like that. He had only one means of producing Custer on the bluffs observing the valley until three minutes BEFORE Reno fell back from hordes of mounted hostiles. Only one way to do that.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 3, 2023 6:03:56 GMT -6
2.bp.blogspot.com/-VwMm1b_eFCc/WVlsv4VVR9I/AAAAAAAAjTA/cZYOh1zCIOAlYy7PmOF31Lkrtclo0AM8QCLcBGAs/s1600/DSCN1984.jpgThere is an image here link from the Hoffert film which is a skirmish line scene filmed east of the river facing upriver. Some of the action in video is online also. I assume this was scripted for the valley fight but the odd thing, is that Custer's companies fighting where Hoffert filmed them, is what what happened during the Custer fight - the first skirmishes as hostiles crossed from the valley. The likes of Yellow Nose and Contrary Belly. Meanwhile, if you accept John Stands in Timber and there is no reason to, then some bunches of fighters were pecking away from the higher ground east and north. Sort of sucking Custer in and delaying him. It didn't take long. Reno fell back from his fight, the Sioux swarmed over the river and attacked Custer across MTC - cutting the command off. Reno fought the briefest of actions in the valley. It really isn't worth considering further since that is simply what happened. That allowed the command esat of the river to be cut off from a return upriver and required them to manouvre for defence - that may not have been Custer's strong point. It seems that he had some problems with retreats also but it is reasonable to assume that by the time Reno arrived to Reno Hill, Custer's command was scattered across Deep Coulee and the NC ridge terrain - moving to unite on favorable territory. A large force of Cheyennes then moved down Greasy Grass Ridge after the the Finley Hill fight and up onto Battle Ridge, surrounding and hemming in the cavalry. Marksmen on Monument Hill overlook Calhoun Hill. What do you think Custer did? Charge a lot, or a little? The answer- a little big lot.
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