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Post by herosrest on May 7, 2023 10:28:33 GMT -6
I narrowed into one of the sources on body count. Of 210 dead on Custer battlefield, only 56 are recorded as recognised at time of burial. Twenty-seven were recognised on Last Stand Hill, twelve on the South Skirmish Line or in Deep Ravine, seven in the Keogh area, four on Calhoun Hill and Greasy Grass Ridge, and eleven in other locations. In five cases individuals are identified in more than one location. Custer died with 17 sergeants of whom 11 were identified; 18 corporals and 6 were identified. 10 musicians or trumpeters of whom 3 trumpeters were identified; 146 privates of whom 22 were identified. Table 11 archive.org/details/theydiedwithcust00scot/mode/1up?view=theaterIf you remember the discussions about what Reno and Benteen heard then it is obvious both were deaf that day.
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Post by herosrest on May 7, 2023 10:42:29 GMT -6
Hr... You bring up a point that I have never given much thought. And that is trumpeting. I would expect there to be a trumpet call that would tell others to come to the sound of the trumpet. Be it a rally point or some other name. I am under the impression that non use of trumpets would end when the Indians already know there are Soldiers in the area. I can understand why there would have been no trumpet calls while the soldiers were on Rosebud Creek. My question to all is.....Why didn't Martini point his trumpet in the direction of where they know Benteen is and start blowing like crazy? This would surely be faster than sending a note. Rosebud I have a slightly different point on Benteen's whereabouts. Given my analysis that he watered at the oasis on the Hartung ranch, then he saw Custer's command go over the bluffs. link.
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Post by Bruce Robert on May 7, 2023 10:51:29 GMT -6
One can define a term any way they chose, but when the do so, they need to put the term in quotations and explain their definition. Is it a "lie" to answer a question with what one believes or best remembers to be true, if in fact it is not true (and of course, what is truth...). Or is this simply a recognition backed by extensive scientific research that human memory/recall is highly flawed. I'm not defending Martini's reflections, only suggesting it is not as simple as "lie or truth." Truth lies along a spectrum that often is belied by holding to a polar position.
To further complicate matters, are the Homeric tales lies or ways to express truths other than "newspaper" facts? Perhaps Martini is acting the modern Homer...
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Post by herosrest on May 7, 2023 11:24:50 GMT -6
One can define a term any way they chose, but when the do so, they need to put the term in quotations and explain their definition. Is it a "lie" to answer a question with what one believes or best remembers to be true, if in fact it is not true (and of course, what is truth...). Or is this simply a recognition backed by extensive scientific research that human memory/recall is highly flawed. I'm not defending Martini's reflections, only suggesting it is not as simple as "lie or truth." Truth lies along a spectrum that often is belied by holding to a polar position. To further complicate matters, are the Homeric tales lies or ways to express truths other than "newspaper" facts? Perhaps Martini is acting the modern Homer... I think he was Catholic.
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Post by herosrest on May 10, 2023 6:29:06 GMT -6
From research by a long time buff (Jose Blaque), Martin gave a lecture in 1914 which explains everything (maybe) - “ I had proceeded some 200 yards towards the positions of Reno and Benteen, when my attention was attracted by a volley. Turning, I saw a sight that astonished and almost unnerved me. The Indians had opened fire with their Winchesters, and were making a charge behind fresh buffalo skins, spread out in such a way that Custer’s horses were frightened into complete disorganization. I only stopped to look a moment, but here and there I noticed men dismounted, trying to hold two or three horses which had got beyond the control of their riders. In most every instance I saw the dismounted men shot down and the riderless horses plunge away. The odor of the fresh skins being shaken in the heat of the broiling sun seemed to craze the animals, and undoubtedly contributed largely to the rapidity and success of the Indians’ awful carnage. I don’t think the massacre lasted more than an hour. […] Terry asked Benteen if there were any survivors, and I was ordered to give him an account of the carnage as I had seen it.” (From an abstract of the lecture published by The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, April 4th 1914). I'll give my interpretation more weight than Martin lecturing 38 years later but of course, time flies. I am perfectly happy to alter my view of this quandry should it ever prove that the Indians sat on buffalo skin blankets whilst riding but I find this a difficult proposition. Buffalo skin in one hand and Winchester in the other, doesn't really make much sense. Just like Walter M. Camp's quick notes. He knew what he meant and actually got time with Martin, apparently. Another matter related to Martin which I kept open for years whilst digging battle turnips up, was trumpeting. Hostile's accounts tell of this happening but Martin, one of the instrumentalists, does not. Thus it took place after his departure and moving far enough not to hear. Today, trains running along the railway can be heard a mile to two distat, on the battlefield. There are enough references in the Indian accounts that bugling did take place. A point worth noting is that Cheyennes and Sioux perfectly understood the army's tactics of destroying property to destitute them as happened in March '76 at Powder River; and the Cheyennes perfectly understood Custer's flanking tactics to attack from all directions. It fell apart on Greasy Grass in the blink of an eye. Looks to me like Martini is in for a bit of besmirching. A finished buffalo hide weighs about 70 pounds. A wet---FRESH --- buffalo hide will weigh close to 100 pounds. Good grief. What some people are willing to believe. No wonder this battle is so complicated. Enhanced memories that no longer speak the truth are lies if you ask me. Is a large fib the same as a little lie? When does a lie become a lie? Is there a standard we can use? I have never seen one. Oh....Maybe a "white Lie" is ok. Hmmmm......Now I am confused. Rosebud I bumped an image this morning which left me somewhat geisentshelleinblarmed since it goes to heart of some wibbly wobbly by Trumperter Martin.... buffalo skin waving Indian with Henry or Winchester at full gallop. So, time for a little bot of Remington..... Hmm... The gunsmith or painter? Yaaaaarg...... It's such a neat work, i've tinified the file to 93.6 KB (95,859 bytes) attached And linked it from Postimage.org So, John boy...... you're trumpet may have been true. Source
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 10, 2023 7:53:58 GMT -6
Curley stated that the battalion split in MTC. Ph.D. Douglass Scott has CIL going straight across and EF and HQ heading toward the river. Martin states he was sent back approximately 600 yards from the river. He describes cutting back cross country to hit the trail he came down. That trail would be to the east of Weir.
The higher portion is CIL which crossed Deep Coulee from Nye Cartwright and came to the Calhoun Area from an eastern direction. If you look at Godfrey's map, it states Custer's route is unknown. If you follow what Curley observes, he explains the Indian observations. Custer went toward the river, and CIL went straight across and approached Battle Ridge and the Calhoun Area from the east as the egressed Deep Coulee.
Regards
AZ Ranger This view is more of a hybrid version of the old way of thinking. It is almost mandatory to have Custer going to the river when there is absolutely no reason for him to do so. It is inconceivable for anyone to believe that Custer would stay in the bottom, when history and tactics say he should be on the ridge so he can observe the country and movement of the enemy. There is no way Custer would have gone down the bottom of MTC. He might send a company down the coulee to drive out the Indians but Custer himself is not going to be in the bottom. At some point Custer was on Nye/Cartright ridge giving orders. From there he went directly to Calhoun hill, dropping him off, then it was on to the last stand hill where he met his Waterloo! Rosebud Rosebud
Custer didn't go down MTC to cross at MTF. I agree. They moved down MTC to slow the movement of Indians across the river for a short time to allow CIL to advance to the north. Custer turned north and paralleled the soldiers on Batte Ridge. Sometimes within 500 yards of each other.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on May 10, 2023 10:02:21 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on May 10, 2023 10:51:20 GMT -6
I wish to inject some thoughts on the phase of movements from Medicine Tail's Coulee across to Deep Ravine and Calhoun Hill, which begins with the later episode of hat waving seen by DeRudio, for example, which I understand as taking place from the spur of ridge running south from Weir Peak into a parallel nearer above the river. An account of this by Curley to Walter M. Camp, has Mitch Bouyer signaling to Custer to north that they needed to talk. Thus Bouyer with Curley in tow by this telling, ride north to Custer and tell whatever it was Bouyer had to say. It seems impossible to know where Custer was but it is possible to eliminate areas of terrain where he could not be. He was therefore within eyeline beyond Medicine Tail's coulee and either west or north. I do not believe that anything worthwhile, or at all, in the valley and at the camps could be seen from anywhere along from MTC right through to Deep Coulee looking south. Also, did Custer wait for Bouyer or meet halfway. I re-visited Herman J. Viola's book 'Little Bighorn Remembered, where he notes that it was to him, as director of the National Anthropological Archives, that Edward S. Curtis's son forwarded the father's collection of notes and discussed in the book. Custer went onto Greasy Grass Hill. I assume that was with the HQ in tow. Bad news from Bouyer and poor views of the valley led him to that dominating terrain. My post HERE offers views from the Luce NC terrain to east, south and north. Custer simply could not see into the valley through the river treeline. Dust yes, rising above it with smoke also, but no view of what was happening and completely no view towards Garryowen and the river timber there or back up the valley. A view from the Greasy Grass Hill AREA.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 21, 2023 6:17:33 GMT -6
Meanwhile, back at ( or near) Ford D, via Indians and Philo Clark in 1877… “ Sir, In compliance with the verbal instructions of the Department Commander I have the honor to submit the following report of the late Sioux War, based upon facts gleaned from statements made to me by Indians who have surrendered at Red Cloud and Spotted Tail Agencies during the past eight months…” Harper, Appendices Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on May 23, 2023 8:32:43 GMT -6
This is a good example of the confusion inherent to the battle and accepted theory being wrong, and plainly so, after some thought. I'll go off at a tangent briefly to illustrate that not all hostiles in the fight, fought Custer at Last Stand Hill. An example is Ogalala 'Paints Brown', who fought Reno in the valley, then Keogh and took took trophies and went against Reno Hill. He fought the Keogh fight. The source is Taming of the Sioux - it may be on Hathi or Archive.org. Context. Clark copied a stick drawing in the mud, onto parchment or silk. Probably the silk used for maps made in the field. His informant might well have been Ogalala and no ID ever came to light that I have found. The informant understood the camp and was obviously present whether in combat or not. It is assumption that the informant was a fighter. Ravine 'G' is broadly accepted and understood today. Less well known is that a good part of Sitting Bull's band moved there after Reno's withdrawl into the river; and those warriors stayed put in reserve shielding an attack from upriver - which would have ended in immediate disaster doing exactly what Reno avoide and then trumped. The ravine is a highly visible effective barrier to cavalry moving downstream across the D Fords on Curley's land. You simply charge into a deep and wide ditch. Reno didn't do that going in and on the way out did, charging straight into a river. We know how that ended - badly. The village, from many sources and trusted sources, extended from Garryowen, to the river opposite the mouth of the divide between Deep and Medicine Tail coulees. This is what Clark's informant drew and what Clark copied. The rest is straight forward to relate to the actual terrain and maps. Guess what - Custer Hill or Last Stand Hill, if you prefer, is not shown. How couls that be? See the opening comments. Clark was very well thought of, tediously bright and focused but he was not there and was interpretting in sign language. Just another of the minor snafu's that riddle study of events. He called a ford 'D'.... in 1877.... This ain't no theory of ford D. It entirely supports traditional understandings and confusions. It does not support the modern trollop. Regards. Confirmation is in finding the little stream at 'K'.
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Post by johnson1941 on May 24, 2023 7:31:13 GMT -6
Yep - confusion all right....as is typical! I see it as Muskrat Creek / the original Reno Crk...just near the Santee Camp. "We started and went down stream to the mouth of Muskrat Creek beyond the Santee camp." Standing Bear "Of particular interest for this study was the sampling of a lone cottonwood at Medicine Tail Coulee since it may be the same tree documented on the 1876 Kill Eagle map" And H - where "Custer found here". ford "D" - conincidence? - it was after all his label on a map. Where would you say the creek and Custer spot are? Attachments:
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Post by fredinzona on Jul 12, 2023 0:35:09 GMT -6
Waving a full size buffalo hide is preposterous. It simply weighs too much and would be uncontrolable. Remington was not above embellishment. His painting shows a very small hide. Perhaps deer hides or a small piece of buffalo hide. Gotta also remember that whereas Indians were good riders they did not have stirrups. Their ability to balance holding a rifle in one hand and waving a deer skin that size let alone a heavy buff skin in the other would not be great.
Martini's original story is the version most likely to be accurate. I prefer the narrative John S. Gray put forth concerning Curely's observations.
Philo's map is interesting 'cept it has so little about Custer's movements.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 17, 2023 6:01:17 GMT -6
i.postimg.cc/z5hjBHmH/Remington-wave.jpgClark's map is difficult to fix because it only shows the one creek crossing the valley. Try as you might, that makes interpretation difficult. My reasoning gives it as the first or upriver creek nearest Ford B but that is easily differed for those who wish it. What we do have is subsequent information through Curtis, for example and Freeman at the time, as to locations of the camp circles with the Cheyennes opposite the DC and MTC divide. Told also by WoodenLeg. The camp moved after destruction of Keogh and Yates' battalions and of course this introduced confusion to accounts of where and what took place in the valley. I tend towards the Marquis map as a reference tool with it being so clinical, when i'm in that frame of mind but my scalpel does slip, now and again. Here's Stevie - link - something magical happens towards the end of this video.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 17, 2023 6:26:02 GMT -6
Waving a full size buffalo hide is preposterous. It simply weighs too much and would be uncontrolable. Remington was not above embellishment. His painting shows a very small hide. Perhaps deer hides or a small piece of buffalo hide. Gotta also remember that whereas Indians were good riders they did not have stirrups. Their ability to balance holding a rifle in one hand and waving a deer skin that size let alone a heavy buff skin in the other would not be great. Martini's original story is the version most likely to be accurate. I prefer the narrative John S. Gray put forth concerning Curely's observations. Philo's map is interesting 'cept it has so little about Custer's movements. It was with Curley, that Gray exposed just how stupid his study methosd were. Gray did the Curtis theory thing, and his entire timeline began with Custer on the bluffs watching the Reno Fight and blinds study by fitting timing to that singular event (which didn't happen). To fit Curley in, he then magic carpets him around until a timing works in his scenario. Gray was primarily interested in his process and not the results hence he discarde an awful lot of stuff which didn't fit. What didn't fit is his entire concept of events. Identical to the rubbish W.A. Graham spewed forth in 1926 and it was an utter rubbish of imagined movements. Just my view but..... erm..... Cedar Coulee - Village to west then i'll read north. Divide - Village signs on Reno Ck. to the west - i'll send Benteen South even though I can see only one standing Tepee......... it's insane.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jul 18, 2023 4:44:59 GMT -6
Curley " Custer made a brief survey of the situation and turned and rode to his command. He did not ask Bouyer or me about the country - we rode following the creek as you know - we were all the time going away from the valley. We finally came out at the Creek - Medicine Tail Creek..." Yep - seems Custer did quite a few things that many today, with well-detailed hindsight of course, wouldn't have done. Oh Well - he did lose after all - badly. If one believes Curely (and why not ?- him vs other scouts on who was where along the trail)- he has a well detailed narrative of Custer's trail and a huge portion of the fight (best viewed in Custer in '76). americanindian.net/custer/files/page_155.htmlSeems I should read Gray - just for the amusement!
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