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Post by quincannon on Jan 29, 2015 15:27:19 GMT -6
Are buffalo chips appropriate to serve to my guests on Sunday? If so what kind of dip would you all recommend to compliment their taste. I am taking notes, for the Madam will soon call, and ask if I have any requests when she stops by the commissary on her way home.
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Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2015 15:41:14 GMT -6
Chris, also not pointed out that by this time, they often used matches to light their buffalo chips. That is the ones they were not using for the dip.
Just a follow up.
I can just hear the tribal elder. "I'll have you know young man in our age we had to light that dung with stick, not a simple match. And we had to walk to council barefoot in the snow uphill for two miles--both ways. Youth today just don't know how good they have it."
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 15:42:38 GMT -6
Ground Rocky Mountian Oysters 1lb cooked 1 cup fresh chives 1 cup sour cream 1TBS of fajita seasoning 2ts fresh garlic crushed red pepper to taste Blend in large bowl to smooth consistency cover and chill, ready to serve in 2hrs
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Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2015 15:44:28 GMT -6
My brother would try something like that. The words this might be a stupid thing just never crosses his brains at times. Beth
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Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2015 15:47:26 GMT -6
Are buffalo chips appropriate to serve to my guests on Sunday? If so what kind of dip would you all recommend to compliment their taste. I am taking notes, for the Madam will soon call, and ask if I have any requests when she stops by the commissary on her way home. It would give a new meaning to flaming hot...
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Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2015 15:52:25 GMT -6
Ground Rocky Mountian Oysters 1lb cooked 1 cup fresh chives 1 cup sour cream 1TBS of fajita seasoning 2ts fresh garlic crushed red pepper to taste Blend in large bowl to smooth consistency cover and chill, ready to serve in 2hrs It's hard to find those oyster beds in the Rockies this time of the year because of snow. You might have to use prairie oysters this time of year. Beth
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 16:08:09 GMT -6
Chris, don't like the way I orchestrated getting your video in. I know Chuck likes orchestration! That's not a bad word, is it?
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 16:19:20 GMT -6
Beth, What question are you asking me to answer? I thought I adequately answered the Benteen/lLie question already. Respectfully Mark I hope this works lbha.proboards.com/post/104330/threadBeth, I think I've captured most of my thoughts and what is behind my conclusions. Questions to you. Prove Reno was drunk. Everyone here has shown you that he was sober, made sound or explainable choices and maintained command.I cannot prove he was drunk and I think asking for absolute proof of something that happened 130 years ago suffocates debate and conversation. I will try to provide reasons and explain why I have come to the conclusions I have. I do not agree that Maj Reno made sound decisions and I do not agree that he maintained command. I believe Capt. Benteen unofficially assumed command from him. How much alcohol did Reno consume? At a minimum, I believe he drank a quart of whiskey, probably more. Davern at RCOI, confirmed by Reno, that Reno was carrying bottle of whiskey that day. Trooper John Fox in interview with Camp – Reno appeared to be drunk, or partially so, at the time the regiment began towards Weir Pt. Frett – Packer – At RCOI told of a drunk Reno, slapping him and splashing whiskey on him. Churchill – Packer – Confirmed Frett story. Reno denied and states he caught the men stealing. Lt. Mathey, in charge of pack, stated at RCOI that he had no problems with any of the packers. Following from Camp interviews/Donavan notes A Terrible Glory/RCOI; DeRudio – claimed he saw Reno and Gerrard drinking whiskey at the morass. Private Taylor – claims Reno drinking whiskey on the advance through the village. Lt. Mathey contradicts his RCOI testimony in interview with Camp and claims Reno was drinking whiskey and gave the impression he was drunk. Trooper Burkman – claims during the retreat to Reno Hill that Maj Reno was half drunk. Trooper Lange – Reno was drunk all the time on Reno Hill. Trooper White – With my own eyes I saw these officers open a bottle of whiskey and drink enough to make any ordinary man drunk. Capt. French – told reporter Reno had been drunk during the hilltop fight and had hidden himself from the command (NYT – Jan 19th 1879). Lt Gibson in letter to wife – Reno did not know which end was up. Dr. Porter – “Reno was drunk, and acted cowardly all through the fight” (Donavan/W.A. Falconer). Capt. Godfrey considered Major Reno to be cowardly and craven. Very harsh words Even his close friend the Rev. Dr. Arthur Edwards said, “his strange actions at the battle, were due to the fact he was drunk” (Donavan/Northwestern Christian Advocate, 1904) How drunk do you think he was at different times of the battle--estimate the percentage if you like – By all accounts, I would say shortly after reaching the top of Reno Hill he was intoxicated to the point where he could no longer effectively command. He quickly begins to fixate on Hodgson. He wastes 30 plus minutes of his time and then others time searching for and attempting to bury his remains. When he is told of volley fire by McDougall, he ignores the statement and responds that Hodgson is dead. To his credit, he does send for ammunition from the pack train. As far as I can ascertain, this is the last meaningful order Reno gives. When exactly in the battle was Reno drunk? On his way in the timber, drunk sometime after arriving on the hill. How did a drunk Reno make it to and up on the bluff? Do you think the horse picked the route and steered around hostiles? Would a horse ridden by a drunk respond or would just run back the way it had come. While he had been drinking, he still had enough about him to retreat. The panicked, everyman for yourself retreat, with no rear guard is also an indication to me that he was not acting as a leader. The “mount, dismount, mount” episode shows somebody who is not thinking clearly nor in control. Many troopers claimed no order was given to retreat. Men were left behind to fend for themselves. I also have questions about the amount of time that was spent in the timber. Benteen testified that upon reaching Ford A he saw men deployed in a skirmish line with Indians all about them. This would indicate to me that the retreat to the timbers was not yet complete and the retreat to Reno Hill had not started. If Fred’s timeline is correct and Benteen left Ford A at 2.48 and arrived to meet Reno at 2.57 that would require the skirmishers to retreat to the timber, find their horses, form up and begin the retreat to Reno Hill in less than 9 mins. That is a pushing it tight. So did Reno really take the time to assess the timbers as defendable? Did he take the time to put together a coherent exit strategy or was it a panicked flee following the death of the Bloody Knife? With regards to the timber as defendable, Benteen stated it was ““a” number 1 defendable” position. He added that this depended on the number of Indians attacking. His testimony states that 900 Indians were attacking from what he witnessed and that the timbers were a “great deal better” when asked “Was it not a better place for Major Reno’s command than the position on the hill?” He adds further that the timbers could have been held against double the number of Indians till the next morning. This is obviously an exaggeration but it does speak to the haste at which Reno retreated. How did a drunk Reno go up and down the steep bluffs? Act with purpose by gathering Hodgson's stuff, return, and arrange for a burial party? Goes to my earlier point – he fixated on Hodgson. How did a drunk Reno manage to convey to the officers what needed to be done? He didn’t. Benteen deployed skirmish lines. Weir deployed in the skirmish line, ups and leaves with his command. Benteen soon follows. In a letter Benteen wrote to Goldin he states, “Major Reno kept his trumpeter pretty busily engaged in sounding the halt for the purpose of bringing my command to a stand. However, I paid no heed whatever to the signal”. Command was taken over by Benteen. Benteen determined that they should retreat back to Reno Hill where he arranges the defenses. Lt Gibson said in a letter to his wife, “….Benteen took the management of affairs into his own hands, and it was very fortunate for us that he did” (Donavan/Fougera, With Custer’s Cavalry). Further from Dr. Porter, “if it had not been for Benteen, we would all have been killed.” Prove there was alcohol in the pack train that would have been held back from the wounded who needed fluids for the sake of Reno to drink? Why people would risk their lives to go get water if the said alcohol was in the supplies. Pvt Hetler – “there were four demijohns of whiskey”, others claimed Reno had a keg with the pack train. Hetler claims he got a “little some” while in the hospital tent. How often did Reno drink to maintain his drunken state? How much alcohol did it take? I don’t know. But statements show alcohol taken on the 25th and then further statements from Reno that he drank after Indians left that night. Testimony from Mathey has him drinking from a near empty bottle on the morning of the 26th. What are the effects of alcohol mixed with exhaustion, dehydration and stress? Complete and total breakdown; both physical and mental. How did a drunk Reno stay on his feet so long through the day and night giving meaningful orders and directions? He didn’t, Benteen gave the meaningful instructions. Statements have Reno back by the packs for the majority of the engagement on the evening of the 25th. How did a drunk Reno keep Benteen and all the rest of the men from releaving him of command because he was incapable of command? They did unofficially. Benteen ran the show on the hill and made all the big decisions, with the help of some very good men. How was sober Reno able to give a good account of events, not only to the RCOI but Terry and every other person up and down the chain of command? I disagree that he gave good accounts of his actions and the actions of others. Finally I would add the following; Reno Court of Inquiry officer following the Inquiry, “the officers wouldn't tell us anything, and we could do nothing more than damn Reno with faint praise." In 1880, Maj Reno was charged with striking an officer and being drunk – found guilty and discharged. Although unrelated, this and some other less than savory incidents speak to the character of the man.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 16:35:38 GMT -6
Beth, I think I've captured most of my thoughts and what is behind my conclusions. Questions to you. Prove Reno was drunk. Everyone here has shown you that he was sober, made sound or explainable choices and maintained command.I cannot prove he was drunk and I think asking for absolute proof of something that happened 130 years ago suffocates debate and conversation. I will try to provide reasons and explain why I have come to the conclusions I have. I do not agree that Maj Reno made sound decisions and I do not agree that he maintained command. I believe Capt. Benteen unofficially assumed command from him. How much alcohol did Reno consume? At a minimum, I believe he drank a quart of whiskey, probably more. Davern at RCOI, confirmed by Reno, that Reno was carrying bottle of whiskey that day. Trooper John Fox in interview with Camp – Reno appeared to be drunk, or partially so, at the time the regiment began towards Weir Pt. Frett – Packer – At RCOI told of a drunk Reno, slapping him and splashing whiskey on him. Churchill – Packer – Confirmed Frett story. Reno denied and states he caught the men stealing. Lt. Mathey, in charge of pack, stated at RCOI that he had no problems with any of the packers. Following from Camp interviews/Donavan notes A Terrible Glory/RCOI; DeRudio – claimed he saw Reno and Gerrard drinking whiskey at the morass. Private Taylor – claims Reno drinking whiskey on the advance through the village. Lt. Mathey contradicts his RCOI testimony in interview with Camp and claims Reno was drinking whiskey and gave the impression he was drunk. Trooper Burkman – claims during the retreat to Reno Hill that Maj Reno was half drunk. Trooper Lange – Reno was drunk all the time on Reno Hill. Trooper White – With my own eyes I saw these officers open a bottle of whiskey and drink enough to make any ordinary man drunk. Capt. French – told reporter Reno had been drunk during the hilltop fight and had hidden himself from the command (NYT – Jan 19th 1879). Lt Gibson in letter to wife – Reno did not know which end was up. Dr. Porter – “Reno was drunk, and acted cowardly all through the fight” (Donavan/W.A. Falconer). Capt. Godfrey considered Major Reno to be cowardly and craven. Very harsh words Even his close friend the Rev. Dr. Arthur Edwards said, “his strange actions at the battle, were due to the fact he was drunk” (Donavan/Northwestern Christian Advocate, 1904) How drunk do you think he was at different times of the battle--estimate the percentage if you like – By all accounts, I would say shortly after reaching the top of Reno Hill he was intoxicated to the point where he could no longer effectively command. He quickly begins to fixate on Hodgson. He wastes 30 plus minutes of his time and then others time searching for and attempting to bury his remains. When he is told of volley fire by McDougall, he ignores the statement and responds that Hodgson is dead. To his credit, he does send for ammunition from the pack train. As far as I can ascertain, this is the last meaningful order Reno gives. When exactly in the battle was Reno drunk? On his way in the timber, drunk sometime after arriving on the hill. How did a drunk Reno make it to and up on the bluff? Do you think the horse picked the route and steered around hostiles? Would a horse ridden by a drunk respond or would just run back the way it had come. While he had been drinking, he still had enough about him to retreat. The panicked, everyman for yourself retreat, with no rear guard is also an indication to me that he was not acting as a leader. The “mount, dismount, mount” episode shows somebody who is not thinking clearly nor in control. Many troopers claimed no order was given to retreat. Men were left behind to fend for themselves. I also have questions about the amount of time that was spent in the timber. Benteen testified that upon reaching Ford A he saw men deployed in a skirmish line with Indians all about them. This would indicate to me that the retreat to the timbers was not yet complete and the retreat to Reno Hill had not started. If Fred’s timeline is correct and Benteen left Ford A at 2.48 and arrived to meet Reno at 2.57 that would require the skirmishers to retreat to the timber, find their horses, form up and begin the retreat to Reno Hill in less than 9 mins. That is a pushing it tight. So did Reno really take the time to assess the timbers as defendable? Did he take the time to put together a coherent exit strategy or was it a panicked flee following the death of the Bloody Knife? With regards to the timber as defendable, Benteen stated it was ““a” number 1 defendable” position. He added that this depended on the number of Indians attacking. His testimony states that 900 Indians were attacking from what he witnessed and that the timbers were a “great deal better” when asked “Was it not a better place for Major Reno’s command than the position on the hill?” He adds further that the timbers could have been held against double the number of Indians till the next morning. This is obviously an exaggeration but it does speak to the haste at which Reno retreated. How did a drunk Reno go up and down the steep bluffs? Act with purpose by gathering Hodgson's stuff, return, and arrange for a burial party? Goes to my earlier point – he fixated on Hodgson. How did a drunk Reno manage to convey to the officers what needed to be done? He didn’t. Benteen deployed skirmish lines. Weir deployed in the skirmish line, ups and leaves with his command. Benteen soon follows. In a letter Benteen wrote to Goldin he states, “Major Reno kept his trumpeter pretty busily engaged in sounding the halt for the purpose of bringing my command to a stand. However, I paid no heed whatever to the signal”. Command was taken over by Benteen. Benteen determined that they should retreat back to Reno Hill where he arranges the defenses. Lt Gibson said in a letter to his wife, “….Benteen took the management of affairs into his own hands, and it was very fortunate for us that he did” (Donavan/Fougera, With Custer’s Cavalry). Further from Dr. Porter, “if it had not been for Benteen, we would all have been killed.” Prove there was alcohol in the pack train that would have been held back from the wounded who needed fluids for the sake of Reno to drink? Why people would risk their lives to go get water if the said alcohol was in the supplies. Pvt Hetler – “there were four demijohns of whiskey”, others claimed Reno had a keg with the pack train. Hetler claims he got a “little some” while in the hospital tent. How often did Reno drink to maintain his drunken state? How much alcohol did it take? I don’t know. But statements show alcohol taken on the 25th and then further statements from Reno that he drank after Indians left that night. Testimony from Mathey has him drinking from a near empty bottle on the morning of the 26th. What are the effects of alcohol mixed with exhaustion, dehydration and stress? Complete and total breakdown; both physical and mental. How did a drunk Reno stay on his feet so long through the day and night giving meaningful orders and directions? He didn’t, Benteen gave the meaningful instructions. Statements have Reno back by the packs for the majority of the engagement on the evening of the 25th. How did a drunk Reno keep Benteen and all the rest of the men from releaving him of command because he was incapable of command? They did unofficially. Benteen ran the show on the hill and made all the big decisions, with the help of some very good men. How was sober Reno able to give a good account of events, not only to the RCOI but Terry and every other person up and down the chain of command? I disagree that he gave good accounts of his actions and the actions of others. Finally I would add the following; Reno Court of Inquiry officer following the Inquiry, “the officers wouldn't tell us anything, and we could do nothing more than damn Reno with faint praise." In 1880, Maj Reno was charged with striking an officer and being drunk – found guilty and discharged. Although unrelated, this and some other less than savory incidents speak to the character of the man. How dare you question without answering others questions.
RegardsTom
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 16:35:58 GMT -6
Beth, I think I've captured most of my thoughts and what is behind my conclusions. Questions to you. Prove Reno was drunk. Everyone here has shown you that he was sober, made sound or explainable choices and maintained command.I cannot prove he was drunk and I think asking for absolute proof of something that happened 130 years ago suffocates debate and conversation. I will try to provide reasons and explain why I have come to the conclusions I have. I do not agree that Maj Reno made sound decisions and I do not agree that he maintained command. I believe Capt. Benteen unofficially assumed command from him. How much alcohol did Reno consume? At a minimum, I believe he drank a quart of whiskey, probably more. Davern at RCOI, confirmed by Reno, that Reno was carrying bottle of whiskey that day. Trooper John Fox in interview with Camp – Reno appeared to be drunk, or partially so, at the time the regiment began towards Weir Pt. Frett – Packer – At RCOI told of a drunk Reno, slapping him and splashing whiskey on him. Churchill – Packer – Confirmed Frett story. Reno denied and states he caught the men stealing. Lt. Mathey, in charge of pack, stated at RCOI that he had no problems with any of the packers. Following from Camp interviews/Donavan notes A Terrible Glory/RCOI; DeRudio – claimed he saw Reno and Gerrard drinking whiskey at the morass. Private Taylor – claims Reno drinking whiskey on the advance through the village. Lt. Mathey contradicts his RCOI testimony in interview with Camp and claims Reno was drinking whiskey and gave the impression he was drunk. Trooper Burkman – claims during the retreat to Reno Hill that Maj Reno was half drunk. Trooper Lange – Reno was drunk all the time on Reno Hill. Trooper White – With my own eyes I saw these officers open a bottle of whiskey and drink enough to make any ordinary man drunk. Capt. French – told reporter Reno had been drunk during the hilltop fight and had hidden himself from the command (NYT – Jan 19th 1879). Lt Gibson in letter to wife – Reno did not know which end was up. Dr. Porter – “Reno was drunk, and acted cowardly all through the fight” (Donavan/W.A. Falconer). Capt. Godfrey considered Major Reno to be cowardly and craven. Very harsh words Even his close friend the Rev. Dr. Arthur Edwards said, “his strange actions at the battle, were due to the fact he was drunk” (Donavan/Northwestern Christian Advocate, 1904) How drunk do you think he was at different times of the battle--estimate the percentage if you like – By all accounts, I would say shortly after reaching the top of Reno Hill he was intoxicated to the point where he could no longer effectively command. He quickly begins to fixate on Hodgson. He wastes 30 plus minutes of his time and then others time searching for and attempting to bury his remains. When he is told of volley fire by McDougall, he ignores the statement and responds that Hodgson is dead. To his credit, he does send for ammunition from the pack train. As far as I can ascertain, this is the last meaningful order Reno gives. When exactly in the battle was Reno drunk? On his way in the timber, drunk sometime after arriving on the hill. How did a drunk Reno make it to and up on the bluff? Do you think the horse picked the route and steered around hostiles? Would a horse ridden by a drunk respond or would just run back the way it had come. While he had been drinking, he still had enough about him to retreat. The panicked, everyman for yourself retreat, with no rear guard is also an indication to me that he was not acting as a leader. The “mount, dismount, mount” episode shows somebody who is not thinking clearly nor in control. Many troopers claimed no order was given to retreat. Men were left behind to fend for themselves. I also have questions about the amount of time that was spent in the timber. Benteen testified that upon reaching Ford A he saw men deployed in a skirmish line with Indians all about them. This would indicate to me that the retreat to the timbers was not yet complete and the retreat to Reno Hill had not started. If Fred’s timeline is correct and Benteen left Ford A at 2.48 and arrived to meet Reno at 2.57 that would require the skirmishers to retreat to the timber, find their horses, form up and begin the retreat to Reno Hill in less than 9 mins. That is a pushing it tight. So did Reno really take the time to assess the timbers as defendable? Did he take the time to put together a coherent exit strategy or was it a panicked flee following the death of the Bloody Knife? With regards to the timber as defendable, Benteen stated it was ““a” number 1 defendable” position. He added that this depended on the number of Indians attacking. His testimony states that 900 Indians were attacking from what he witnessed and that the timbers were a “great deal better” when asked “Was it not a better place for Major Reno’s command than the position on the hill?” He adds further that the timbers could have been held against double the number of Indians till the next morning. This is obviously an exaggeration but it does speak to the haste at which Reno retreated. How did a drunk Reno go up and down the steep bluffs? Act with purpose by gathering Hodgson's stuff, return, and arrange for a burial party? Goes to my earlier point – he fixated on Hodgson. How did a drunk Reno manage to convey to the officers what needed to be done? He didn’t. Benteen deployed skirmish lines. Weir deployed in the skirmish line, ups and leaves with his command. Benteen soon follows. In a letter Benteen wrote to Goldin he states, “Major Reno kept his trumpeter pretty busily engaged in sounding the halt for the purpose of bringing my command to a stand. However, I paid no heed whatever to the signal”. Command was taken over by Benteen. Benteen determined that they should retreat back to Reno Hill where he arranges the defenses. Lt Gibson said in a letter to his wife, “….Benteen took the management of affairs into his own hands, and it was very fortunate for us that he did” (Donavan/Fougera, With Custer’s Cavalry). Further from Dr. Porter, “if it had not been for Benteen, we would all have been killed.” Prove there was alcohol in the pack train that would have been held back from the wounded who needed fluids for the sake of Reno to drink? Why people would risk their lives to go get water if the said alcohol was in the supplies. Pvt Hetler – “there were four demijohns of whiskey”, others claimed Reno had a keg with the pack train. Hetler claims he got a “little some” while in the hospital tent. How often did Reno drink to maintain his drunken state? How much alcohol did it take? I don’t know. But statements show alcohol taken on the 25th and then further statements from Reno that he drank after Indians left that night. Testimony from Mathey has him drinking from a near empty bottle on the morning of the 26th. What are the effects of alcohol mixed with exhaustion, dehydration and stress? Complete and total breakdown; both physical and mental. How did a drunk Reno stay on his feet so long through the day and night giving meaningful orders and directions? He didn’t, Benteen gave the meaningful instructions. Statements have Reno back by the packs for the majority of the engagement on the evening of the 25th. How did a drunk Reno keep Benteen and all the rest of the men from releaving him of command because he was incapable of command? They did unofficially. Benteen ran the show on the hill and made all the big decisions, with the help of some very good men. How was sober Reno able to give a good account of events, not only to the RCOI but Terry and every other person up and down the chain of command? I disagree that he gave good accounts of his actions and the actions of others. Finally I would add the following; Reno Court of Inquiry officer following the Inquiry, “the officers wouldn't tell us anything, and we could do nothing more than damn Reno with faint praise." In 1880, Maj Reno was charged with striking an officer and being drunk – found guilty and discharged. Although unrelated, this and some other less than savory incidents speak to the character of the man. How dare you question without answering others questions.
RegardsTom
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 16:36:40 GMT -6
How dare you question without answering others questions.
RegardsTom
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 16:42:18 GMT -6
Beth, I think I've captured most of my thoughts and what is behind my conclusions. Questions to you. Prove Reno was drunk. Everyone here has shown you that he was sober, made sound or explainable choices and maintained command.I cannot prove he was drunk and I think asking for absolute proof of something that happened 130 years ago suffocates debate and conversation. I will try to provide reasons and explain why I have come to the conclusions I have. I do not agree that Maj Reno made sound decisions and I do not agree that he maintained command. I believe Capt. Benteen unofficially assumed command from him. How much alcohol did Reno consume? At a minimum, I believe he drank a quart of whiskey, probably more. Davern at RCOI, confirmed by Reno, that Reno was carrying bottle of whiskey that day. Trooper John Fox in interview with Camp – Reno appeared to be drunk, or partially so, at the time the regiment began towards Weir Pt. Frett – Packer – At RCOI told of a drunk Reno, slapping him and splashing whiskey on him. Churchill – Packer – Confirmed Frett story. Reno denied and states he caught the men stealing. Lt. Mathey, in charge of pack, stated at RCOI that he had no problems with any of the packers. Following from Camp interviews/Donavan notes A Terrible Glory/RCOI; DeRudio – claimed he saw Reno and Gerrard drinking whiskey at the morass. Private Taylor – claims Reno drinking whiskey on the advance through the village. Lt. Mathey contradicts his RCOI testimony in interview with Camp and claims Reno was drinking whiskey and gave the impression he was drunk. Trooper Burkman – claims during the retreat to Reno Hill that Maj Reno was half drunk. Trooper Lange – Reno was drunk all the time on Reno Hill. Trooper White – With my own eyes I saw these officers open a bottle of whiskey and drink enough to make any ordinary man drunk. Capt. French – told reporter Reno had been drunk during the hilltop fight and had hidden himself from the command (NYT – Jan 19th 1879). Lt Gibson in letter to wife – Reno did not know which end was up. Dr. Porter – “Reno was drunk, and acted cowardly all through the fight” (Donavan/W.A. Falconer). Capt. Godfrey considered Major Reno to be cowardly and craven. Very harsh words Even his close friend the Rev. Dr. Arthur Edwards said, “his strange actions at the battle, were due to the fact he was drunk” (Donavan/Northwestern Christian Advocate, 1904) How drunk do you think he was at different times of the battle--estimate the percentage if you like – By all accounts, I would say shortly after reaching the top of Reno Hill he was intoxicated to the point where he could no longer effectively command. He quickly begins to fixate on Hodgson. He wastes 30 plus minutes of his time and then others time searching for and attempting to bury his remains. When he is told of volley fire by McDougall, he ignores the statement and responds that Hodgson is dead. To his credit, he does send for ammunition from the pack train. As far as I can ascertain, this is the last meaningful order Reno gives. When exactly in the battle was Reno drunk? On his way in the timber, drunk sometime after arriving on the hill. How did a drunk Reno make it to and up on the bluff? Do you think the horse picked the route and steered around hostiles? Would a horse ridden by a drunk respond or would just run back the way it had come. While he had been drinking, he still had enough about him to retreat. The panicked, everyman for yourself retreat, with no rear guard is also an indication to me that he was not acting as a leader. The “mount, dismount, mount” episode shows somebody who is not thinking clearly nor in control. Many troopers claimed no order was given to retreat. Men were left behind to fend for themselves. I also have questions about the amount of time that was spent in the timber. Benteen testified that upon reaching Ford A he saw men deployed in a skirmish line with Indians all about them. This would indicate to me that the retreat to the timbers was not yet complete and the retreat to Reno Hill had not started. If Fred’s timeline is correct and Benteen left Ford A at 2.48 and arrived to meet Reno at 2.57 that would require the skirmishers to retreat to the timber, find their horses, form up and begin the retreat to Reno Hill in less than 9 mins. That is a pushing it tight. So did Reno really take the time to assess the timbers as defendable? Did he take the time to put together a coherent exit strategy or was it a panicked flee following the death of the Bloody Knife? With regards to the timber as defendable, Benteen stated it was ““a” number 1 defendable” position. He added that this depended on the number of Indians attacking. His testimony states that 900 Indians were attacking from what he witnessed and that the timbers were a “great deal better” when asked “Was it not a better place for Major Reno’s command than the position on the hill?” He adds further that the timbers could have been held against double the number of Indians till the next morning. This is obviously an exaggeration but it does speak to the haste at which Reno retreated. How did a drunk Reno go up and down the steep bluffs? Act with purpose by gathering Hodgson's stuff, return, and arrange for a burial party? Goes to my earlier point – he fixated on Hodgson. How did a drunk Reno manage to convey to the officers what needed to be done? He didn’t. Benteen deployed skirmish lines. Weir deployed in the skirmish line, ups and leaves with his command. Benteen soon follows. In a letter Benteen wrote to Goldin he states, “Major Reno kept his trumpeter pretty busily engaged in sounding the halt for the purpose of bringing my command to a stand. However, I paid no heed whatever to the signal”. Command was taken over by Benteen. Benteen determined that they should retreat back to Reno Hill where he arranges the defenses. Lt Gibson said in a letter to his wife, “….Benteen took the management of affairs into his own hands, and it was very fortunate for us that he did” (Donavan/Fougera, With Custer’s Cavalry). Further from Dr. Porter, “if it had not been for Benteen, we would all have been killed.” Prove there was alcohol in the pack train that would have been held back from the wounded who needed fluids for the sake of Reno to drink? Why people would risk their lives to go get water if the said alcohol was in the supplies. Pvt Hetler – “there were four demijohns of whiskey”, others claimed Reno had a keg with the pack train. Hetler claims he got a “little some” while in the hospital tent. How often did Reno drink to maintain his drunken state? How much alcohol did it take? I don’t know. But statements show alcohol taken on the 25th and then further statements from Reno that he drank after Indians left that night. Testimony from Mathey has him drinking from a near empty bottle on the morning of the 26th. What are the effects of alcohol mixed with exhaustion, dehydration and stress? Complete and total breakdown; both physical and mental. How did a drunk Reno stay on his feet so long through the day and night giving meaningful orders and directions? He didn’t, Benteen gave the meaningful instructions. Statements have Reno back by the packs for the majority of the engagement on the evening of the 25th. How did a drunk Reno keep Benteen and all the rest of the men from releaving him of command because he was incapable of command? They did unofficially. Benteen ran the show on the hill and made all the big decisions, with the help of some very good men. How was sober Reno able to give a good account of events, not only to the RCOI but Terry and every other person up and down the chain of command? I disagree that he gave good accounts of his actions and the actions of others. Finally I would add the following; Reno Court of Inquiry officer following the Inquiry, “the officers wouldn't tell us anything, and we could do nothing more than damn Reno with faint praise." In 1880, Maj Reno was charged with striking an officer and being drunk – found guilty and discharged. Although unrelated, this and some other less than savory incidents speak to the character of the man. How dare you question without answering others questions.
RegardsTom
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 16:42:59 GMT -6
Beth, I think I've captured most of my thoughts and what is behind my conclusions. Questions to you. Prove Reno was drunk. Everyone here has shown you that he was sober, made sound or explainable choices and maintained command.I cannot prove he was drunk and I think asking for absolute proof of something that happened 130 years ago suffocates debate and conversation. I will try to provide reasons and explain why I have come to the conclusions I have. I do not agree that Maj Reno made sound decisions and I do not agree that he maintained command. I believe Capt. Benteen unofficially assumed command from him. How much alcohol did Reno consume? At a minimum, I believe he drank a quart of whiskey, probably more. Davern at RCOI, confirmed by Reno, that Reno was carrying bottle of whiskey that day. Trooper John Fox in interview with Camp – Reno appeared to be drunk, or partially so, at the time the regiment began towards Weir Pt. Frett – Packer – At RCOI told of a drunk Reno, slapping him and splashing whiskey on him. Churchill – Packer – Confirmed Frett story. Reno denied and states he caught the men stealing. Lt. Mathey, in charge of pack, stated at RCOI that he had no problems with any of the packers. Following from Camp interviews/Donavan notes A Terrible Glory/RCOI; DeRudio – claimed he saw Reno and Gerrard drinking whiskey at the morass. Private Taylor – claims Reno drinking whiskey on the advance through the village. Lt. Mathey contradicts his RCOI testimony in interview with Camp and claims Reno was drinking whiskey and gave the impression he was drunk. Trooper Burkman – claims during the retreat to Reno Hill that Maj Reno was half drunk. Trooper Lange – Reno was drunk all the time on Reno Hill. Trooper White – With my own eyes I saw these officers open a bottle of whiskey and drink enough to make any ordinary man drunk. Capt. French – told reporter Reno had been drunk during the hilltop fight and had hidden himself from the command (NYT – Jan 19th 1879). Lt Gibson in letter to wife – Reno did not know which end was up. Dr. Porter – “Reno was drunk, and acted cowardly all through the fight” (Donavan/W.A. Falconer). Capt. Godfrey considered Major Reno to be cowardly and craven. Very harsh words Even his close friend the Rev. Dr. Arthur Edwards said, “his strange actions at the battle, were due to the fact he was drunk” (Donavan/Northwestern Christian Advocate, 1904) How drunk do you think he was at different times of the battle--estimate the percentage if you like – By all accounts, I would say shortly after reaching the top of Reno Hill he was intoxicated to the point where he could no longer effectively command. He quickly begins to fixate on Hodgson. He wastes 30 plus minutes of his time and then others time searching for and attempting to bury his remains. When he is told of volley fire by McDougall, he ignores the statement and responds that Hodgson is dead. To his credit, he does send for ammunition from the pack train. As far as I can ascertain, this is the last meaningful order Reno gives. When exactly in the battle was Reno drunk? On his way in the timber, drunk sometime after arriving on the hill. How did a drunk Reno make it to and up on the bluff? Do you think the horse picked the route and steered around hostiles? Would a horse ridden by a drunk respond or would just run back the way it had come. While he had been drinking, he still had enough about him to retreat. The panicked, everyman for yourself retreat, with no rear guard is also an indication to me that he was not acting as a leader. The “mount, dismount, mount” episode shows somebody who is not thinking clearly nor in control. Many troopers claimed no order was given to retreat. Men were left behind to fend for themselves. I also have questions about the amount of time that was spent in the timber. Benteen testified that upon reaching Ford A he saw men deployed in a skirmish line with Indians all about them. This would indicate to me that the retreat to the timbers was not yet complete and the retreat to Reno Hill had not started. If Fred’s timeline is correct and Benteen left Ford A at 2.48 and arrived to meet Reno at 2.57 that would require the skirmishers to retreat to the timber, find their horses, form up and begin the retreat to Reno Hill in less than 9 mins. That is a pushing it tight. So did Reno really take the time to assess the timbers as defendable? Did he take the time to put together a coherent exit strategy or was it a panicked flee following the death of the Bloody Knife? With regards to the timber as defendable, Benteen stated it was ““a” number 1 defendable” position. He added that this depended on the number of Indians attacking. His testimony states that 900 Indians were attacking from what he witnessed and that the timbers were a “great deal better” when asked “Was it not a better place for Major Reno’s command than the position on the hill?” He adds further that the timbers could have been held against double the number of Indians till the next morning. This is obviously an exaggeration but it does speak to the haste at which Reno retreated. How did a drunk Reno go up and down the steep bluffs? Act with purpose by gathering Hodgson's stuff, return, and arrange for a burial party? Goes to my earlier point – he fixated on Hodgson. How did a drunk Reno manage to convey to the officers what needed to be done? He didn’t. Benteen deployed skirmish lines. Weir deployed in the skirmish line, ups and leaves with his command. Benteen soon follows. In a letter Benteen wrote to Goldin he states, “Major Reno kept his trumpeter pretty busily engaged in sounding the halt for the purpose of bringing my command to a stand. However, I paid no heed whatever to the signal”. Command was taken over by Benteen. Benteen determined that they should retreat back to Reno Hill where he arranges the defenses. Lt Gibson said in a letter to his wife, “….Benteen took the management of affairs into his own hands, and it was very fortunate for us that he did” (Donavan/Fougera, With Custer’s Cavalry). Further from Dr. Porter, “if it had not been for Benteen, we would all have been killed.” Prove there was alcohol in the pack train that would have been held back from the wounded who needed fluids for the sake of Reno to drink? Why people would risk their lives to go get water if the said alcohol was in the supplies. Pvt Hetler – “there were four demijohns of whiskey”, others claimed Reno had a keg with the pack train. Hetler claims he got a “little some” while in the hospital tent. How often did Reno drink to maintain his drunken state? How much alcohol did it take? I don’t know. But statements show alcohol taken on the 25th and then further statements from Reno that he drank after Indians left that night. Testimony from Mathey has him drinking from a near empty bottle on the morning of the 26th. What are the effects of alcohol mixed with exhaustion, dehydration and stress? Complete and total breakdown; both physical and mental. How did a drunk Reno stay on his feet so long through the day and night giving meaningful orders and directions? He didn’t, Benteen gave the meaningful instructions. Statements have Reno back by the packs for the majority of the engagement on the evening of the 25th. How did a drunk Reno keep Benteen and all the rest of the men from releaving him of command because he was incapable of command? They did unofficially. Benteen ran the show on the hill and made all the big decisions, with the help of some very good men. How was sober Reno able to give a good account of events, not only to the RCOI but Terry and every other person up and down the chain of command? I disagree that he gave good accounts of his actions and the actions of others. Finally I would add the following; Reno Court of Inquiry officer following the Inquiry, “the officers wouldn't tell us anything, and we could do nothing more than damn Reno with faint praise." In 1880, Maj Reno was charged with striking an officer and being drunk – found guilty and discharged. Although unrelated, this and some other less than savory incidents speak to the character of the man. How dare you question without answering others questions.
RegardsTom
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 16:44:53 GMT -6
Scarface, you are not Mark and you are Bill Murray, and this is Ground Hog Day!!!!
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 16:46:37 GMT -6
Mark, SSDD, get over yourself.
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