|
Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2015 6:07:19 GMT -6
Scar, in hindsight, would it not be fair to say that due to time and continued distance that Custer's wing were dead men walking/riding by the time the note arrives. If as you seem to think Benteen dawdled let's explore what would have happened if he did what you seem to think he should. He orders packs to close up and follow him. The units close up and begin to gallop into the breach.
Now we have answered your questions now please answer mine, don't expound just answer direct questions like you are on the witness stand.
1. Could the packs keep up with Benteen? 2. Should Benteen have gone at the speed that the packs could keep up? 3. Would have Benteen have arrived at Reno Hill as fast as he did without the packs? 4. Would have Reno's command have suffered more losses had Benteen continued to keep the packs closed up and with him? 5. Should he stop he to help get this situation in hand or continue on, maybe leaving some ammo for Reno? 6. Have any packs fallen off along the way or mules become exhausted? 7. Which way should he proceed after leaving troops and the drunk on Reno Hill, to their own devices? 8. Should he just charge to the sound of the guns, after all he could hear them and knew just where to go? 9. How different would the outcome be?
Remember no blather here just answer, then we will have the battle you deem correct.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 29, 2015 6:59:41 GMT -6
Chuck is this the scene you mentioned? Well organised, well trained and well led troops; linkOf course Wayne and his men can also fire in volley (I tried to get the scene from the main gate were they fired in a similar fashion to Zulu, but I couldn’t locate it). linkThe painting you described was by an artist named Martin Pate, his work is first rate and here is a few samples; Calhoun Hill Indians view Calhoun falls (Lame White Man) Ian.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 29, 2015 7:02:35 GMT -6
More from Pate; Keogh is routed by Crazy Horse; The approach to LSH (Wooded Leg); Ian.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 29, 2015 7:16:30 GMT -6
That statement of yours is the lie. At the time of receiving the note he had not formed that opinion and clearly testifies to that. His opinion that Custer was dead was formed later after the battle. Opinions are not lies. You clearly made it appear that Benteen testified that during the battle Benteen thought Custer was dead and that is nowhere to be found in his testimony. The only misrepresentation is yours and it appears to be a lie to me. Do your homework and reread the RCOI. Context is important. Did you really think you would get away with misrepresenting testimony? Regards AZ Ranger At the RCOI, under oath Capt. Benteen testified to the following; Q - “When two columns such as yours and General Custer are in quest of Indians, would it not be the duty of the one which found the Indians to notify the other?” A – Certainly. Q – Did you not receive such notifications from General Custer at the hands of Trumpeter Martini? A – I received an order to “Come on – be quick, big village – bring packs. Bring Packs.” He then had found – I wish to say, before that order reached me, that I believe that General Custer and his whole command were dead. So taking this in context, he is telling us that he now believes Custer and his entire command were dead before Martini reaches him. Using Fred’s timeline, that means he believes Custer and his entire command was routed within 39 minutes. He has them all dead before Reno has reached the top of Reno Hill. When questioned about gun fire and volley fire on reaching Reno Hill this is what he has to say; - “I heard very little firing at all. After I got on the hill where Maj Reno was, I don’t suppose I heard more than 15 or 20 shots “ - “I heard no volleys” - On Weir Pt, “I saw no such evidence (of a battle) nor heard any firing.” On further questioning; Q – With regard to the length of time you heard firing from the direction of General Custer’s battlefield?” A – I heard none. Q – Did you at any time from hearing firing have any intimation whatever that any engagement was taking place? A – I did not. And now the testimony of Maj Reno; Q – With regards to volley fire…? A – I heard no such firing. - “I heard no firing till after we moved down some distance. Then I heard a few scattering shots…I thought it was from the village. Testimony from others on Reno Hill; Capt. Godfrey who admits to being a little deaf and furthest from the gunfire, “I heard two very distinct volleys…the supposition was it was done by General Custer. 1st Lt Edgerly – Shortly after I got to the hill – almost immediately I heard firing and remarked it – heavy firing, by volleys, down the creek. Capt Weir came to me and said General Custer was engaged.” - On reaching Weir Pt, “when we got on the ridge we saw a great many Indians riding up and down firing at objects on the ground.” Sgt Davern – “Shortly after I got on the hill….it was in volleys. I said to Weir that must be General Custer fighting. Sgt Culbertson – “While sitting there talking to Lt Edgerly we could hear the firing, at first it was a couple of volleys, very heavy…..Lt. Varnum made the remark that General Custer was hotly engaged.” Adds further, “It seemed like skirmish line firing.” Churchill (Packer) – “I heard 4 or 5 volleys about one and half hours after arriving (Reno Hill)….others heard and spoke of it. Who are we supposed to believe? If Capt. Benteen's believe is that General Custer and his command were all dead before he got to Reno Hill, how do we explain the volley fire? Based on the evidence, I have concluded Benteen and Reno both lied about not hearing volley fire. Which then leads me to question their motive and entire testimony. As Beth has pointed out you need to read the context. Benteen tells you what he believes in real time and he tells you opinions formed after the battle. What is hard to understand about that? The questions were about communications and not a timeline of what did you do next context. Benteen's later formed opinion that Custer was dead is not what he believed in real time and is not what he testifies to regarding his real time opinions. So what you have done is try to pass off a misrepresentation of the context of testimony and call it a lie. The lie is yours alone if that is your example of a lie.
The sound is another great topic used to misrepresent testimony. Only the person hearing something can state what they heard. It seems foolish to me that someone would argue what someone else heard or recalled hearing.
I teach sound meters for noise above a certain level that result in violations. We have shooting ranges where we monitor sound levels. I shoot at a range and shoot if lucky on hunts. I have heard hundreds of thousands of shots in my career. I have worked in our Phoenix office which is right next to the Ben Avery shooting facilities and have an informed opinion on sound and hearing.
There is only one person that state what they heard anyone else is guessing.
First sound levels of shots at distance are less than conversation levels up close. Do you think that Reno and Benteen may have been talking and giving orders?
The mind can control what you hear and recall. A Tucson police officer friend stated in his shooting that resulted in the death of the bad guy he did not hear his Glock going off when he fired but what he did hear was the brass hitting the floor. Seems to me that Glock would have a much higher sound level than firing at distance. For myself the shots at the range hurt my ears if I don't wear protection yet when hunting I hardly notice the shots.
Also when firing it has a tendency to shut down your hearing for a while. Did Reno fire any shots from the bluffs?
Finally if you are engaged in doing something you can ignore sound and therefore not recall hearing it. At our Phoenix office sometimes I stop and listen and can hear the trap and skeet range firing but most of the time I could not recall hearing it yet I know it is going on all of the time. So a trooper sitting and waiting for what to do next could easily hear something and recall it that another trooper engaged in conversation or working on a wounded friend does not recall hearing.
So you must understand what that sound level would have been and then all of the factors that could contribute to not hearing it or not recall hearing it.
Only a fool in court would attempt to state that someone else heard something without some indication from that person that they heard something.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 29, 2015 7:23:53 GMT -6
Shucks Beth, so much common sense makes me want to get up in the morning, have two eggs up, grits, red eyed gravy, biscuits, and country ham. Then I can ask my arteries if it is them I hear getting hard. When you nail it, you nail it. I think we all have unanswered questions of Scar littering this thread. Regards, Tom That sounds so tasty but I would rather have bacon or sausage over country ham. Or just biscuits and gravy. Beth Huevos Rancheros Small lodge 6 1/2" skillet oiled. Tortilla Chorizo and hot sausage mixture pre-cooked Jalapeno slices Cheese Egg on top (mine is sunny side up) Sauce or salsa of your choose Regards Steve
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 29, 2015 7:45:05 GMT -6
Chorizo is my favourite foreign sausages (we Brits have some great sausages though), but chorizo, hot sausage (new to me) and Jalapenos would wake you up in the morning, maybe a little tabasco too? I bought a jar of Jalapenos last year and they blew my head off, and I was a Vindaloo man in my younger days and even went as high as a Phall on a number of occasions.
We have a breakfast over here known as the “Full English” and I only have this a couple of times a year; Either Kippers or cereal to start with and fresh orange juice then;
Two fried eggs Two pork sausages Three rashers of bacon Black pudding Grilled tomato Mushrooms Baked beans in tomato sauce Two waffles (optional but I like them) One slice of fried bread
And of course a good pot of strong tea (it you are wondering where the toast is, I have after the meal with butter and marmalade).
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 29, 2015 11:03:56 GMT -6
Good God Ian. I go to one thread and they are talking 18ozers from the Big Texan, and I come over here and you're having beans for breakfast. More than a body can stand for one morning, especially when the Madam is at a County Commissioners meeting, and all I have to look forward to is a couple of pieces of toast. It's Texas Toast but you get the picture.
Tom,Good luck.
Atmospherics and terrain are factors in how sound travels as well.
Horse cavalry is a weak arm of the service. It depends upon an animal for mobility, and another animal for sustenance. In a world where the tactical vehicle for mobility, and the truck or helicopter that are used to sustain never tire out, it is well to remember the horse and mule do. If they are to have any combat potential they must be kept as fresh as possible, and part of that freshness is determined by how fast they go, and what terrain they travel over.
I am dismayed when someone says what should have happened without first an analysis of if it could have happened. The latter shows reasoned thought, where the former is an exercise in running one's mouth to hear themselves talk.
Beth: Your grandfather never laid aside duty to those who wear the blue. There should always be someone there to hear Taps, as a reminder both of sacrifice and our own mortality.
|
|
|
Post by Colt45 on Jan 29, 2015 11:36:51 GMT -6
QC, your comment about stating something should happen without first analyzing could it happen reminded me of a marketing class I took long ago when working on my MBA. The teacher posed a question to the class about what should company A do to solve a marketing problem. Quite a few answers came up about spend on ads, or do some market analysis, etc. The company's financials were available for all to see, so when I pointed out that the company did not have the funds available to implement any of the previously offered good ideas, the blank stares I got from the class were almost comical. I got an A from the professor.
This scenario repeats itself everyday it seems. People forget to see if a perceived solution to a problem is actually possible, given existing circumstances. Scarface's ideas on how Reno and Benteen could have saved Custer, if only they weren't drunks and dawdlers/liars fits this flawed type of thinking perfectly.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 29, 2015 11:52:44 GMT -6
Colt I sometimes look in odd places to gain wisdom. One of my favorite places are the short stories of Bellah. I am paraphrasing a line here from Spanish Man's Grave
It is always better to find out if you can shoot "possible" (meaning well or proficiently), before the regimental band plays too loudly.
Military operations, like legislating, is the art of what's possible.
The ability to get up and go, is largely determined by your present capacity to get up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 12:29:55 GMT -6
QC, your comment about stating something should happen without first analyzing could it happen reminded me of a marketing class I took long ago when working on my MBA. The teacher posed a question to the class about what should company A do to solve a marketing problem. Quite a few answers came up about spend on ads, or do some market analysis, etc. The company's financials were available for all to see, so when I pointed out that the company did not have the funds available to implement any of the previously offered good ideas, the blank stares I got from the class were almost comical. I got an A from the professor. This scenario repeats itself everyday it seems. People forget to see if a perceived solution to a problem is actually possible, given existing circumstances. Scarface's ideas on how Reno and Benteen could have saved Custer, if only they weren't drunks and dawdlers/liars fits this flawed type of thinking perfectly. Colt, I don't believe in my short time on these boards that I have ever claimed "Reno and Benteen could have saved Custer". I have definitely claimed, and stand by it, that they did not do all they could to support him that day. Thanks Mark
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Jan 29, 2015 12:59:09 GMT -6
What did LTC Custer do to support MAJ Reno and CPT Benteen?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 29, 2015 12:59:18 GMT -6
Colt before you answer the above, first ask the question, what was the nature of the support they could have rendered? It is not a matter then of all they could do but rather a question of what they could do.
No answer will be forthcoming because he himself does not know.
When someone says support, they must also define support. What kind of support. Was it support by fire? Was it support by maneuver. Was it moral support? Was it child support? Was it support by sending Custer a new jock strap via Federal Express? If the type cannot be defined and articulated, then chances are that support cannot be rendered.
When Benteen was sent left for miles, was Custer in position to support him had Benteen encountered more than he could handle? The answer is no he could not and that was Custer's decision alone.
When he sent Reno into the valley was Custer, by his own deliberate maneuver in a position to support him? The answer is no and it was Custer's decision alone
When Reno and Benteen met were they in a position where Custer could be supported, him having gone far north? The answer is no and it was Custer's decision alone
In each of these instances, all were created by Custer, not Reno or Benteen. Custer deliberately sent Benteen far away, and was unable to render support by distance alone. Custer deliberately sent Reno in and then deliberately moved to a position where timely support could not be rendered.
Custer deliberately moved north out of supporting position, while the sum total of his previous actions regarding what he deliberately did to Benteen and Reno, created the circumstance where support could not be given him.
So any way you wish to cut the cake, Custer alone was the engine of his own demise, three deliberate acts and the circumstance created by those acts.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2015 13:17:57 GMT -6
Chuck is this the scene you mentioned? Well organised, well trained and well led troops; linkThanks for sharing that. I'm going to have to watch the whole movie now of course but the worried looks of the men in red foreshadowed it wasn't going to end will for them. Where the British uniforms wool then or had they at least gone to cotton for fighting in Africa? It does illustrate easier what I was trying to explain in my head when I was saying with odds and evens but a much better example. Is there anywhere on the Custer battlefield that type of concentrated firepower could have been used? Perhaps Reno but he didn't have enough men to cover the entire area and prevent himself from being surrounded. Perhaps if they were firing at Indians approaching in a coulee or ravine but neither of those are as confining for the combatants that they can't just scramble up the sides. Or am I just totally derailed in my thought process? Beth
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2015 13:21:28 GMT -6
That sounds so tasty but I would rather have bacon or sausage over country ham. Or just biscuits and gravy. Beth Huevos Rancheros Small lodge 6 1/2" skillet oiled. Tortilla Chorizo and hot sausage mixture pre-cooked Jalapeno slices Cheese Egg on top (mine is sunny side up) Sauce or salsa of your choose Regards Steve OMG. I have worked myself away from the midwest mindset that salt and pepper are the only seasoning you need, but my GI system would curl up and die with that for breakfast! Beth
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jan 29, 2015 13:26:49 GMT -6
Chorizo is my favourite foreign sausages (we Brits have some great sausages though), but chorizo, hot sausage (new to me) and Jalapenos would wake you up in the morning, maybe a little tabasco too? I bought a jar of Jalapenos last year and they blew my head off, and I was a Vindaloo man in my younger days and even went as high as a Phall on a number of occasions. We have a breakfast over here known as the “Full English” and I only have this a couple of times a year; Either Kippers or cereal to start with and fresh orange juice then; Two fried eggs Two pork sausages Three rashers of bacon Black pudding Grilled tomato Mushrooms Baked beans in tomato sauce Two waffles (optional but I like them) One slice of fried bread And of course a good pot of strong tea (it you are wondering where the toast is, I have after the meal with butter and marmalade). Ian. Well that explains elevenses, you need the caffeine to prevent a food coma. Beth
|
|