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Post by WY Man on Jan 19, 2008 18:55:43 GMT -5
It's been speculated by some that the claims of Indian mutilations and tortures were grossly exaggerated, or not even true. I know I've read these claims in the past. Anyway, I for one, don't doubt that these barbarities occurred. And yes, these things occurred in intertribal engagements, perhaps with more frequency than in engagements with the U.S. military.
One should keep in mind that the Fetterman Massacre occurred just a couple of years after the Sand Creek Massacre of 1864, and about a year after the Connor massacre of Black Bear's Arapaho village in 1865. The latter took place at present-day Ranchester, Wyoming, about 40 miles north of Fetterman's massacre ground. Allied bands of Cheyenne, Sioux, and Arapaho warriors burned for revenge from the devestations of their villages in 1864 and 1865.
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Post by conz on Jan 31, 2008 13:23:38 GMT -5
One should keep in mind that the Fetterman Massacre occurred just a couple of years after the Sand Creek Massacre of 1864, and about a year after the Connor massacre of Black Bear's Arapaho village in 1865. The latter took place at present-day Ranchester, Wyoming, about 40 miles north of Fetterman's massacre ground. Allied bands of Cheyenne, Sioux, and Arapaho warriors burned for revenge from the devestations of their villages in 1864 and 1865. To be sure, just as they burned with revenge against the Crows, and they burned with revenge against the Pawnee... Is there ANYONE the Sioux and Cheyenne DIDN'T burn with revenge for?! For that matter, last Indian guide I walked with at LBH was a Cheyenne, and he STILL burned with revenge toward the Crow! Thought I'd gone back a century... Clair |
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Post by bubbabod on Jan 31, 2008 14:48:26 GMT -5
I'm sorry that this is off subject, but talking about revenge or grudges, I went to the Bozeman Trail/Ft. Phil Kearny Days seminars several years ago and was seated with some locals from Sheridan and Buffalo. I was asking how the generations of whites get along with the Native Americans in the area. The guy sitting next to me said they get along fairly well, but be careful what you say about the Johnson County Cattle Wars, because there's still hard feelings between some of the descendants living in the area. That's just another colorful time from the Buffalo/Sheridan area.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 31, 2008 16:13:03 GMT -5
bubba:
That's fer sher. Ya don't wanna be wearin' your "Nate Champion for President" T-shirt in some establishments. I worked on a ranch in the area once, and started a few fistfights with my long hair and anti-establishment ways. Powder River, boys!!!!
Gordie
MC
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Post by bc on Jan 31, 2008 18:08:51 GMT -5
I worked on a ranch in the area once, and started a few fistfights with my long hair and anti-establishment ways. Powder River, boys!!!! Gordie MC Gordie, was that before or after you got your fi sempered? Also don't sound like you did much ranching up brokeback mountain way or was that mountain on the Rosebud? lol |
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Post by westco22 on Jan 31, 2008 22:12:51 GMT -5
The guy sitting next to me said they get along fairly well, but be careful what you say about the Johnson County Cattle Wars, because there's still hard feelings between some of the descendants living in the area. When I lived in Gillette, back in the 80s, the library there had trouble keeping books about the JCCW on the shelves, because one side or the other would be offended by whatever opinions the books expressed, and abscond with them. westco |
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Post by harpskiddie on Feb 1, 2008 2:05:58 GMT -5
bc:
I was never a member of the USMC, but rather a civilian employee of, and consultant to, the Department of the Navy.I was seconded to the Marines Corps at Camp Pendleton as a special instructor, for four months, a few short years after my cowboying in Wyoming. I worked for the DON for another while in other places doing other things. Actually I WAS up in the mountains [or a reasonable facsimile thereof] for the winter; but I saved myself for the ladies in April. LOL.
Gordie
MC
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Post by conz on Feb 1, 2008 9:16:13 GMT -5
When I lived in Gillette, back in the 80s, the library there had trouble keeping books about the JCCW on the shelves, because one side or the other would be offended by whatever opinions the books expressed, and abscond with them. Policy is personal among Native peoples. It's just government business with larger societies. Some memories are long concerning affronts to honor, with some memories being more accurate than others with the retelling of stories... Often what is most important are not the facts of the matter, but rather the emotion of the issue...and what books can be "impartial" about that?! Clair |
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Post by harpskiddie on Feb 1, 2008 11:42:38 GMT -5
conz:
The Johnson County War had nothing to do with NDN people, except indirectly. You should read about it. Lots of good books out there, or Google it. It has had a more lasting effect in the area than all of the Indian Wars fights [except for tourism, maybe]. You come down on the wrong side, even today I would bet, and a fight will ensue - and not just a war of words.
Gordie
MC
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Post by conz on Feb 1, 2008 13:46:13 GMT -5
What's the time period on that, Gordie?
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Post by harpskiddie on Feb 1, 2008 16:12:13 GMT -5
conz:
It was the early 90s - 1892 or 1893, I think. It is also known as the Powder River War, which is how I came to learn of it in the first place. I thought I was buying a Custer book. It was an extremely interesting time [from the late 80s into the 90s], and an explosive situation that developed. If I remember correctly, part of the seldom-seen movie, Heaven's Gate, concerns this incident.
The event had everything going for it - rebel cowboys, rustlers, big ranchers versus farmers, an army of hired gunmen from the Southwest, shootouts, the U.S. Cavalry [I've never been sure whose side they were actually on]. Nate Champion was one of the small ranchers/accused rustlers. I think he got killed [it's been a while] when beset by either a posse or part of that gunslinger army. Don't quote me on any of this.
Champion appealed to my WTFAY side in those days , so I had a t-shirt made "Nate Champion for President." I'm guessing that this was following my summer at Busby, likely in the winter of 1960-1961 [it might have been 1961-1962]. Since I had long hair and wore NDN beads and feathers [and played and sang in some of the bars when invited], I'll bet that there are some around who will remember some of the fights, even if they have forgotten me.
I can't recommend any particular book or books on the times, but there must be several listed on Ebay, abebooks or alibris.
Gordie
MC
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Post by conz on Feb 8, 2008 9:05:49 GMT -5
Isn't there enough fighting to study between the Natives and "Americans?" Now we have to buy books on the Americans fighting each other in Indian territory?
Sigh...makes one want to go back and study Napoleonics where there are fewer English books to have to worry about. <g> Better yet, the Ancients...
Clair
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Post by harpskiddie on Feb 8, 2008 11:20:17 GMT -5
Yeah, but it's fascinating. Had all the trappings of all the western movies you ever saw, except for the NDNs [and there may have been a few mixed-bloods involved, I dunno for sure]. And it was real - a woman being lynched, FGS, settlers driving wagons full of reinforcements to aid their friends, John Wayne and Gabby Hayes riding to the rescue [well, not them, but you get the idea.
And the two sides STILL at timbertetes. I'll tell you, the ACW had nothing on Johnson County for breeding continued bad feelings.
Gordie
MC
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Post by gary on Feb 10, 2008 9:20:45 GMT -5
The film 'Heavens Gate' was based upon the Johnson County War.
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Post by WY Man on Apr 26, 2009 0:38:36 GMT -5
The Fetterman battlefield, in October, 2008:  The Wheatley-Fisher rocks on the north end of the Fetterman Battlefield. The inscription reads, "WHEATLEY, FISHER, KILLED BY INDIANS."  |
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