Custer's orderly was female.

[lusty1923]

I have a rather interesting and little known piece of info but with it comes a story.

In the 50s Senator Joe McCarty's Unamerican Activities Committee was investigating alleged Communists in the Army and his questions directed to the Secretary of the Army were often answered by the reply "I'm sorry but that is classified." The Senator became frustrated and demanded that the Army furnish a list by date of all classified information.

After the Army had provided that information the Senator asked the Secretary what had happened in 1876 that could be justified as still being classified and , as expected, the Secretary replied "I'm sorry, but that is classified. The next day, however, the Secretary in an opening statement indicated that the 1876 matter inquired about was the fact that CUSTER'S ORDERLY WAS A WOMAN AND THAT HAD BEEN ORDERED AS CLASSIFIED SECRET UJNTIL MRS. CUSTER DIED AND , WHILE MRS. CUSTER HAD DIED IN THE MID 30S, THE ARMY HAD SIMPLY FORGOT TO UNCLASSIFY THE INFORMATIION.

This information astounded me but reminded me of a short story in a late 19th century book entitled "TheBrigade Commander" by a man named De Forest who, it was indicated, had written his tories based upon his own experiences in the Civil War. The story was about a young flamboyant Brigadier General whose orderly was a young woman he had met during the Shenandoah campaign. The descrption of the General was clearly Custer.

A little later my son was doing a term paper on the LBH battle and we visited the LBH National Monument site in Montana . I took the oppotunity to innocently inquire of the lady in charge "Was the girl buried here?". She inquired "What girl"? and I said "The Colonel>s woman orderly". After a short pause she replied that she "could not discuss that matter unless I had some documented accreditation". I smugly replied that "I think that you already have."

For some years now I have tried to obtain further infomation on this matter but have been wholly unsuccessful. I suppose the best appoach would have been to inquire of the Army under the Freedom of Information Act but I am unfamiliar with that procedure and I speculated that the Army may well have long ago destroyed the file. (The Armhy does take care of its own.)

I am completely satisfied that the information is correct but there still remains the unanswered questions of just who she was, what became of her. I hope someone out there may have some information on the subject or the skill to inquire of the Army.

[e-mail]

[Scout]

The park ranger told me the same thing when I inquired of her. I don't think her body was ever found though. The Indians never mention it, which leads me to believe she may have escaped with Frank Finkel and Nathan Short.

[Diane Merkel]

I'm glad to see you made it on the boards, Lusty, but I'm afraid you're going to have a hard time convincing me there is anything to your statement. We know quite a bit about those who held that position over the years.

Perhaps you are confusing Custer with the Nash/Noonan story.

[Scout]

Probably a composite of Liza, Mrs. Noonan and Monasheeta.

[BrokenSword]

Fascinating stuff, never-the-less.

Numbers of cases (fully documented) in the American Civil War, of women that masqueraded as men. Other times, other places as well .... and for a number of reasons.

The ruse seemed to work as long as the person kept a low profile. An orderly to Custer himself might not be the best place to hide so easily.

As the Chinese say, "The bird that stands out - gets shot."

M

[elisabeth]

Scout, I think you've hit it. Could be an amalgam of Eliza and the notorious "Major" Annie Jones?

[lusty1923]

Scout, I assume that if you inquired of the ranger at LBH monument that you too must have been aware of the McCarthy vs.Army exchange on the subject. I am glad someone else can cofirm my ancient memory. However, as I recall it the Secretary did state or imply that the woman's body was found at the battle site. The question remains who was she and where was her body buried.

Lusty1923

[harpskiddie]

I was going to post a joke about a girl who went through boot camp with a company of Marines, but didn't want to intrude a note of frivolity here.

I also was NOT going to post THIS, because I might sound like some sort of conspiracy nut, but it is true. Not really a story, since there is hardly a climax to it: In the more or less mid-1960s, I was contracted by the United States Department of the Navy for assorted and sundry purposes, none of which are germane to this discussion. As part and parcel of this employment, I was vetted for security purposes, and received some level of clearance, although I never was told what it was. It was never part of my normal jobs to come in contact with classified information, except in the general sense that everything was classified to one extent or another.

I thought Boy I have died and gone to heaven - I can gain access to Army files and search for information that might not be available to the general public. Unfortunately, this proved to be more of a pipedream than a reality, but I did learn that there were files to which I did NOT have access because I did not have a high enough clearance level.

I asked an acquaintance, a Lieut. Col. USMC, who owed me big time, if he would do me a favor and find out what was in the files I could not see. It turned out that he too, did not have high enough clearance and he told me that he was cleared Top Secret. I wondered aloud to him What could be that highly classified? and he said that he had no idea and could not get even a hint; that it was only a slip that I had even been informed that there was something I could not see.

I thought the whole thing smelled rather fishy, and of course it did. When the Freedom of Information acts were proclaimed. I thought that I might be able to finally get an answer, but it became a Catch 22. You actually have to specify what it is that you want, and you can't say what it is if you can't get the name or number or subject matter - otherwise how would you know if you were getting the whole enchilada?

I now have nightmares once or twice a year about finally getting access to the file and reading:

Folder No.

Subject:

August 14, 1876

The remainder of the three pages being blacked out.

Go, figure.

Gordie,
MC
I said this was true, so you can definitely believe me......................................................

[Scout]

No lusty, I was kidding. It's one of our past times here on the board. I've never heard the story before. No woman rode with the Seventh that day and conspiracies aside there is no evidence to support it. I seriously doubt if anyone at the park told you such a thing, perhaps you dreamed it. It sounds to ridiculous and silly to be true doesn't it? The battle is the subject of numerous crazy stories partly because we're uncertain as to what really happened there. It excites the imagination of many. Would love to see a print out of the McCarthy exchange though.

[BrokenSword]

Gordie-

That's one of the files you need Extra Super-Duper Top Clearance to see. I do and have seen that file. It has all the answers to everything you want to know. So, now that you know that, you can stop fretting it and relax. Right?

M

[jimc]

A question and a comment-

Diane - to whom are you referring in your statement 'We know quite a bit about those who held that position over the years. ? I'm guessing you mean the Park's Director??

Scout - Per your statement 'I seriously doubt if anyone at the park told you such a thing, perhaps you dreamed it', I can attest to the validity of the conversation between Lusty1923 and the NPS employee as being a fairly accurate portrayal.

P.S. Didn't I read on another board here that a woman was with the Black Hills Expedition??

Thx all and regards,
JimC

[BrokenSword]

Hello jimc & lusty - "...Didn't I read on another board here that a woman was with the Black Hills Expedition??..."

Sarah Campbell - ca1824 - 1888 signed onto the Custer column as a cook with the 1874 Black Hills expedition. She became known as Aunt Sally to both the soldiers and the miners. She was no secret though.

If by some chance a male impersonator was with the 7th Cav. at anytime and as a soldier. She went undiscovered and certainly didn't die at the Little Bighorn. According to all evidence at hand.

M

[Scout]

jimc...so you were with lusty that day?

[Diane Merkel]

JimC,

First of all, welcome to the boards. Secondly, I meant the general "we" -- as in people who study the battle -- know quite a bit about Custer's orderlies. John Burkman was his orderly at the time but was not present at the battle, so John Martin served in that capacity that day. Both men lived beyond 1876 and neither was female. Orderlies were members of the cavalry and there were others throughout the years, but no one continuously held that position from the Civil War through LBH. If a female had died with Custer at the battle, I'm quite certain that her body would have been exposed in more ways than one.

Do you recall if "the woman in charge" was white or Indian or when you asked the question? If you meant the Park Superintendent, there has been only one female, Barbara Booher.

A female cook was on the Black Hills Expedition, but that was a totally different situation and cannot be compared with taking a woman into what was likely to be a combat situation. (See Broken Sword's reply above.)

Diane

[jimc]

Diane - thanks much for the clarification!

Scout - Precisely my dear Watson :>)

cheers all,
jimc