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Post by shan on Apr 11, 2007 4:06:49 GMT -6
the question as to whether the ledger Art associated with this particular battle is accurate or not is a tricky one. Generally speaking, the artists tried to be as accurate as possible to what they knew, for instance the costume, face paint and accouterments of a particular warrior would be rendered as faithfully as possible. These were after all the mans signature, one that he wished to put out to friend and foe alike in the midst of a battle, a visual display that proclaimed who he was. Now it was not always possible for a warrior to put on all these things, or to paint himself up, and this would have been particularly true of this battle where the Indians were taken by surprise. In this case the artist painted him as he would have wished to have been seen, rather than how he actually was on the day. As to their depictions of the enemy, I think with this battle they are fairly generalized. There may be the odd soldier that is personalized, I think the four men riding south in Standing Bears wonderful depiction of the battle that have the smack of being the real thing, and I think one or two of the men in Red Horses work have the feel of being based on observed men, this may well be more pertinent with the depictions of some of the dead and maimed which he and others would have had more time to observe. I think the rule of thumb with these works is that if they had seen it, if they had been there and done it themselves, then they tried to represent it as faithfully as possible. They is a wonderful drawing in Arrow Elks ledger of a Cheyenne warrior killed 4 hide hunters with a sword. Here each white man is portrayed in his individual clothing, the artist even takes care to depict the different kinds of beards and whiskers, and indeed the individual haircuts the men wore. shan
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Post by Banned on Apr 11, 2007 8:56:59 GMT -6
These are outstanding paintings by Kenneth Ferguson See his website (and the Native American gallery as well) : www.kennethfergusonfineart.com Amazing!! Amazing AND copyrighted. Do not put copyrighted art on these boards without express written permission from the artist, especially when the artist is a friend of the webmaster. ~ DM
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 14, 2007 21:27:34 GMT -6
Shan,
I don't know if you know this or not, ( I didn't know it!) but your paintings are on the internet. I hope you copy-righted them! I was looking for a pictograph to tell CLW about, and happened to run into the posts. You are gonna be famous!
CLW-
I was looking for the site where I saw a pictograph of the LBH battle, and one of the Indians was riding a Curley Horse! I don't know if you are familiar with that 'breed', it came from the Russian breed Bashkir Curley and were not really established in the U.S. until 1898 in the state of Nevada when a man named Peter Damele and his father found three curleys and captured them. They had never seen anything like them. For the Indians to have a curley horse at the LBH in the year 1876 is amazing. It means there had to be some in the state of Montana. mmmmm I'll keep looking until I find the pictograph and see if Diane can post it.
Michael,
Sounds like you are pretty well set with the historical information you need for your masterpiece. Can't wait to see the result! (Hope I live long enough to see it!) I'm working on a portrait of Custer right now (just a head view) because I hope to paint his expression at the moment he realized that it was all over! Got any in-put?
Best to you all, Bab
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 14, 2007 21:53:36 GMT -6
Diane, Do you suppose you could elaborate on the copyrights of posts here, my assumption was that if it was posted on a website, then that website url could be posted here. Am I wrong? I guess I sort of thought it was like advertizing the websites. Thanks, Bab
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 14, 2007 22:22:10 GMT -6
Montana,
You are OK with posting links. CusterStands had posted the actual artwork -- which I removed -- because he has been warned about doing that before. For example, Shan is a professional artist who is well known in the UK, so he is free to post his artwork but no one else should without his permission.
Photos, for the most part, are fine because the ones posted here are usually well out of copyright. When in doubt, post the link but not the actual artwork or photo. Even when posting old photos, it would be a good idea to post the source.
Diane
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Post by BrokenSword on Apr 15, 2007 10:34:41 GMT -6
Montana Bab- "... I hope to paint his expression at the moment he realized that it was all over! Got any in-put?"
I have been fighting the urge to use photos of Rodney Dangerfield as a Custer model at that moment. Can't seem to shake that picture from my mind.
Michael
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 15, 2007 13:56:34 GMT -6
BS
OOKEY, I was actually being serious, but I appreciate your humor. On the other hand, not being a fan of Rodney Dangerfield I wouldn't waste my time drawing his mug.
B&B&B&B
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Post by BrokenSword on Apr 15, 2007 14:45:43 GMT -6
B&B&B&B-
Alright, I'll be serious....if I must.
I see panic and fear. Disbelief AND desperation. The look of a rabbit run to ground. Something like a juggler with three chain saws when he realizes he’s just lost his timing or missed a step in his routine. Maybe the frightened Captain shouting, “Abandon ship!”
Remorse? The crushed look of a man who realizes he’s just killed most of his family? I don’t believe that Custer ever considered himself to have failed at anything. Maybe it was anger? Anger that - yet again - he was right and that others just couldn’t measure up to the task. I don't really picture him as resolved or grimly determined as so many depictions do.
I suppose that one's predisposition to picture Custer as either sacrificial saint or deserving fool comes through in most paintings I’ve studied.
How do YOU see Custer at that moment?
M
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 15, 2007 16:04:02 GMT -6
B&B&B&B- I don’t believe that Custer ever considered himself to have failed at anything. Maybe it was anger? Anger that - yet again - he was right and that others just couldn’t measure up to the task. I don't really picture him as resolved or grimly determined as so many depictions do. M Michael- What you wrote above nails it! Those were my thoughts about his frame of mind at that moment. I think he was incapable of seeing himself as anything but right, righteous, and totally in-the-know. I hadn't even thought about the family connection, but that is a great thought. It's not so easy to just sit down and paint something, is it? I'm going to try several things and see what I come up with. I think it would be a little easier if I "liked" the subject, but that is hopeless. Thank you for the input! I do respect your opinion. Bab
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Post by shan on Apr 15, 2007 16:58:56 GMT -6
clw thanks for your kind words, on the strength of them I went back and did some work on 2 unfinished paintings on the battle that have sat around the studio for over 2 years now, no, not lack of interest, just too little time and too much other work to do.
Montana Bab my thanks to you too, I'm curious, what name did you put in the search engine when you went looking for me?
As to trying to represent Custer during those last few moments, I tend to agree, I don't see regret or fear, nor a "oh well this is it," sort of look, no, Itend to see a man thinking ' yes things look a little difficult but Custer's luck will still get me,--us, out of this, ' right up to the moment the first bullet hit home. Shan
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 15, 2007 19:48:00 GMT -6
Shan,
I just typed in LBH BATTLE ART and the LBHA website popped up on the page with your paintings there. I tried it again tonight and page 4 popped up, so I just scanned back to page 2 where your paintings are.
It's an eye-opener to know that everything we type here goes out over the internet. dummy me, I just never thought about it.
Also thanks for the input on the painting I am working on. It's only in the beginning stages, and I havn't really decided what medium to use. I love to interchange mediums. I love color and texture and trying different things. Either way I like realism, so he will be recognizable. Anyway, keep up your good work! Montana Bab
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Post by clw on Apr 16, 2007 7:28:10 GMT -6
clw thanks for your kind words, on the strength of them I went back and did some work on 2 unfinished paintings on the battle that have sat around the studio for over 2 years now, no, not lack of interest, just too little time and too much other work to do. If I got you back to it, I'm so glad. I paint a little myself, but it's not much. Mostly I start with a sketch that I scan into the computer, and then use a graphic arts program to finish. The hardest part for me is getting started, once I do things seem to flow but it's a huge hump in the beginning. Exactly as I see him. Bab, about the Curleys....... Interesting isn't it? I've also seen some Connemara's that look like they've had a perm.
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 17, 2007 14:47:16 GMT -6
Hey Clw,
There's a new one for you--a Curley Connemara! I'd like to see a picture of that!
Bab
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Post by clw on Apr 17, 2007 18:20:11 GMT -6
Good grief! Wouldn't THAT cross be a 'fro?
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Post by Montana Bab on Apr 18, 2007 0:02:29 GMT -6
Gal, I can't get one up on you, you're too sharp for me! Seriously, though, to get back to the Curleys, I did some more research on them because I couldn't believe that there were loose Curleys in 1876 when LBH took place. I found out that in the Winter Count pictographs the Indians did of the winters of 1801 and 1802, they depicted the Sioux stealing Curley horses from the Crow Indians! So they've been in this country for a very long time. Learn somethin' new every day. I guess not everyone is a horse nut like me. Bab
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