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Post by BrokenSword on Apr 8, 2007 9:41:32 GMT -6
Fiddler-
Good tips! Thank you. I was aware of most of it BUT, now I have to change a bunch of hats. Glad I'm using acrylics.
Michael
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Post by harpskiddie on Apr 8, 2007 10:37:39 GMT -6
Michael:
You may want to do a little more research before changing the hats. Many of the men, and some of the officers, purchased straw hats from the suttlers along the way, primarily when they were serviced by the steamboats. The issue hats, which were rather shapeless to begin with, became even more so when exposed to rain, turning into soggy messes of glop - sorta like white bread when you dunk it in water and squeeze.
Actually, the hardest part of trying to realistically capture portions of the battle is getting the details right as to horses, weapons, clothing, facial hair, dirt, dust smoke and etc., which is probably why so many depictions are way off base historically.
Gordie, slightly off base, but no threat to steal..........................................
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Post by fiddlersgreen on Apr 8, 2007 10:48:30 GMT -6
The Companies issued white hats were C,L, and E. There were between 40 and 60 straw hats purchased from the sutlet on the Yellowstone.To see how the saddles were packed go to the web-site www.fiddlersgreenstudio.com Check out the gallery under Frontier Army and Little Big Horn
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Post by elisabeth on Apr 8, 2007 10:58:20 GMT -6
There's also the shirts question, which many paintings ignore: a lot of troopers would have abandoned their blue blouses because of the heat, and would be in a variety of store-bought shirts. I've read that gray or and blue-and-white check were the commonest colours. (To its credit, the TV version of SOTMS got that right.) With those and the straw hats, they'd have looked as much like a rather disreputable haymaking crew as like soldiers ...
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Post by BrokenSword on Apr 8, 2007 13:14:14 GMT -6
Elisabeth-
Thank you also. Do you know how tedious it is to paint black and white CHECKED shirts? You're just getting even because I gave you reason to watch - YET AGAIN - the ' bloody awful' remake of Stagecoach! Touche.
Groan, groan, groan - sigh.
M
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Post by BrokenSword on Apr 8, 2007 14:11:51 GMT -6
Where's Bab?
Half the fun is missing in her absence. I guess SOME of us have actual lives and, this being Easter week, she is one of them.
M
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Post by harpskiddie on Apr 8, 2007 23:20:54 GMT -6
Michael:
Somewhere I've mentioned this book before. Hutchin's The Cavalry Campaign Outfit at The Little Big Horn. It is one ofthe best, if not the best, sources for uniforms and equipments actually used at the fights on the Little Horn. I think I have the title right, and being me, am too lazy to look it up.
Gordie, still lazy, after all these years.....................................
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Post by fiddlersgreen on Apr 9, 2007 10:56:58 GMT -6
It's important to remember that the Company Commander had the power to order his men into combat...or not, wearing the blouse. Going by the ledger art done by the Indians right after the battle it looks like almost all the Soldiers went into the battle wearing their heavy wool blouses. It would make sense that the Officers would want to spot the non-coms fast during the fight. It also has the effect of giving the impression of a formal killing machine as opposed to being casual. Ironically enough, it does look like the Regimental Commander himself was in a shirt as was his Adjutant. Tom Custer wore a shirt as well but it was made of buckskins. Quite a few Officers wore buckskin jackets into the battle.....and there were a lot of "fireman shirts" there, all made from the same pattern.
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Post by elisabeth on Apr 9, 2007 11:48:40 GMT -6
Interesting. How far do you feel the ledger art was symbolic (e.g. sabres) and how far representational? It does seem very specific as to horse colour, facial hair, etc. ... Should we take it literally on blouses? Or may that have been as symbolic as the sabres?
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Post by harpskiddie on Apr 9, 2007 12:40:51 GMT -6
Elisabeth:
Mainly symbolic. Not too much should be read into the details of the soldiers as drawn by the Indians. Some of the drawings were not made until many years later and by are by non-participants. It is sort of like the reference to Custer meaning only soldiers and not necessarily specific commands. The same holds true for relative numbers of casualties. Some people in the past have drawn inferences from the numbers portrayed in various Indian depictions. That is a losing game.
Soldiers wore uniforms that were blue, so if you wanted to portray a soldier you gave him a blue uniform. As to horse color, well there were different colored horses in the soldier ranks, so why not include a few in the painting? Many of the officers wore buckskin shirts, including Yates, Calhoun, Keogh, Cooke and Tom Custer.
Gordie, whose hat is neither white nor black - nor straw for that matter, and whose doeskin shirt hasn't fit for about 30 years................................................
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 9, 2007 12:53:23 GMT -6
In addition there was not the strict adherence to uniforms as in the modern military.
Back then soldiers could wear all kinds of hats, kerchiefs, "add-ons" to uniforms . . . have personal weapons rather than standard issue, etc.
Custer's famous "circus rider gone made" uniform and Cooke's "safari" outfit are classic examples of soldiers deciding on what to wear.
So it must have been a smorgasborg (spelling?) of how the military looked on campaign.
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Post by BrokenSword on Apr 9, 2007 14:08:51 GMT -6
crzhrs-
Yours is pretty much the picture I have formed about the appearance of the troops in the field in 1876. Weeks if not months on campaign probably left everyone with a desire to just get it done and get home. Gen'l George never showed much personal desire or need for comforts as such in the field. Neither does he seem to have been terribly concerned about the appearance of his troops while on campaign. Most enlisted ranks probably made do with regular issue clothing and equipment as far as possible. They weren’t paid enough to buy a lot of personal gear that they might have preferred to have (not to mention, limited space to stow their gear it in the barracks). Wearing of civilian hats and scarves was widespread. I believe that soldiers were issued only one set of new clothing (uniform and ‘desireables‘, as they called them) per year and did in fact have a privately purchased shirt or two for campaigning. Wouldn’t have wanted to ruin the issue items 3 or 4 months before replacements could be had. Fireman’s shirts as they were called were popular as was the ‘cowboy’ shirt design. As long as it was of even a vaguely military appearance in cut and color and of a practical nature, the company commanders didn’t appear to have been too concerned about it all. Of course the officers had complete latitude in choice of field gear.
I think that the ‘look’ of the soldiers in SOTMS was extremely close to fact. But then, Hollywood got a real helping hand from the participation of re-enactment groups that provided their own well researched wardrobes and equipment. Authentic looking dress and equipment is of course a real budgetary problem for movie makers, and they often have to settle for what ever is available from the prop department. In the grand spectacle ‘Waterloo’, filmed in the 1960s, for example: The rearmost ranks of advancing French infantry can clearly be seen armed with very recognizable M-1 rifles tipped with WW1 style bayonets. The technical advisors must have winced at that one.
As to the spelling of ‘smorgasboard’ maybe Frank would know more about it than us.
Elisabeth said: '…looked as much like a rather disreputable haymaking crew…' Now how DID she know what I look like? Uncanny lady. Simply uncanny.
Michael
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Post by fiddlersgreen on Apr 9, 2007 15:34:07 GMT -6
The ledger Art that I recomended was the stuff captured at Slim Buttes in September 1876. No sabres. (Check out the National Geographic from December 1986 There is a also very expensive book with all kinds of examples in it.) I had always been told that the soldiers went into battle in shirt sleeves as it was such a hot day. The ledger art does not show this. It makes sense then to me, that the soldiers were given orders to put the blouses back on somewhere on Ash Creek, or at least a majority of the Companies. (Remember, this order would come from the Company Commander.) The Indian Artists that made the ledger art were very careful to depict the blouses to have either 5 buttons or, more often 9 buttons with long skirts. (They would be very familiar with them as they ended up being the next owner.)The soldiers HATED the 1872 pleated blouse. Too many buttons to polish and hard to keep the dirt out of the pleats. A nightmare to stand inspection in.....so leave your 5 button back at the barracks and sleep, work, and fight in the other. Also, a Quartermaster on Campaign during the Summer of 1876 wrote in his log that the soldiers hated the 1872 campaign hat because the brim was too wide and after it saw any weather it became misshapen. The Soldiers would take a pocket knife and trim it down several inches. They also complained that it was too hot. The next year many of these hats would be reissued as the 1876 campaign hat which was trimmed down at the brim and sewn over plus it had 2 vents added. Mitch Boyer was said to be wearing a calf skin vest. The Indian scouts had on red sashes to mark them as "friendlies".
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Post by harpskiddie on Apr 9, 2007 21:56:19 GMT -6
There is an inexpensive book of Indian art depicting the battle om EBay at present. I have no idea where the bidding has got to, since I am not following it.
Gordie, Amos Bad Heart Bull was my uncle in law three times removed..........................................
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Post by clw on Apr 10, 2007 7:33:24 GMT -6
This is facinating stuff! Shan, I've seen no battle art that I've enjoyed more that yours. Each individual you've drawn is the story of a tiny piece of the battle and draws me even deeper into the mystery of the event. You have a gift.
I'm gradually working my way through all these links to battle art (dialup) and loving it. Thanks so much Bab for gathering them.
A question I've asked before....... this seems to be the place to find out once and for all if the answer is known. Do we know if the officers were riding in personal saddles (are there any description?) or those of regular issue?
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