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Post by Don Blake on Apr 12, 2005 4:27:40 GMT -6
Europeans on American History?
Joseph G. Rosa - best book on Hickok Colin Taylor - many fine books/articles on Plains Indians John Sugden (isn't he English?) - best book going on Tecumseh - for facts as opposed to flower!
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 12, 2005 7:19:49 GMT -6
<Individuals indians warriors were superior. But in a whole fight, the US army was better. it is a fact.>
Organization and discipline did play a fact in the US Army defeating the Indians in combat. However, you overlook that the US could replace fallen soldiers, resupply quickly, had telegraph to communicate, trains to ship men/supplies, unlimited weapons and ammunition, and they were not fighting with their families beside them. Might and technology does not equal superiority.
Simply put, the Indians were overwhelmed . . . diseases, slaughter of game, too many whites taking the best land, and broken promises were more of a factor than combat. The military was just the final "mopping up."
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Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by Son of a Cavalryman on Apr 12, 2005 18:38:51 GMT -6
Your comments have merit.
SOACM
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Post by weir on Apr 13, 2005 3:32:02 GMT -6
Wounded Knee was not a long prepared uprising. Don't be ridiculous. Testimonies from Phillip Fox Wells, sioux interpreter of the army and testimonies he gathered with reverend Cook from wounded Indians after the battle say for the prepared uprising. Indians had their rifles hidden under blankets and when Yellow Bird put the dust on the air, it was a signal. Wells told us that an Indian saw a burnt body from a Medicine Man and said to Wells : "he is our murderer !" and cut some fingers of the dead body. Another old woman said to Wells that the Big Foot's tribe member were "cheaters" and that some wanted peace, but Medicine Men said to young warriors to fight. A piece of history you missed ?
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Post by weir on Apr 13, 2005 3:55:22 GMT -6
In the numbers, the disease were the most powerful ennemies of the Indians. About the half of the Indians losses 1850-1890 were from illness.
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Post by Don Blake on Apr 13, 2005 10:04:18 GMT -6
Don't patronise me, Xav. Read the all Ricker interviews; don't be selective This was not a 'long prepared' uprising. What on earth is your definition of 'long prepared'? The handling of the whole affair was wrong right from the start, whoever fired the first shot.
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Post by Don Blake on Apr 13, 2005 10:07:49 GMT -6
Don't patronise me, Xav. What's your definition of 'long prepared'? Read the Ricker interviews, not just the commenst that appeal to you. There's some doubt as to the existence of Yellow Bird! Whoever fired the first shot, there was nothing 'long prepared' about it and the whole affair had been handled badly right from the start.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 14, 2005 16:26:07 GMT -6
<A piece of history you missed ?>
By 1890 the Sioux culture was shattered. They had been penned on reservations and kicked around by the government, their children stolen to be taken to white man's school, poor food and supplies, forced to farm on land that any white farmer would laugh at, and all the other injustices that are imposed on a defeated people. And always the militarly there to remind them if they stepped out of line they would be "punished." Did the Sioux intend a battle at Wounded Knee? NO! Did they want to be prepared to defend themselves after the military chased Big Foot's band all over the reservation? YES! It was the military who brazenly rummaged through the tepees, frightening the women and children. It was the reformed 7th Cavalry who pointed Hotchkis guns at the Indians, trying to intimidate them. And yes, it was the medicine man, Yellow Bird who told his followers to be strong and stand their ground.
And don't forget that Sitting Bull, his son, many of his followers, and Indian police were killed trying to arrest him, in botched plan by the government to end the Ghost Dance.
The Indians were forced into a situation that could have been avoided, but the memories of the LBH was still fresh in the 7th's mind.
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Post by weir on Apr 15, 2005 9:16:53 GMT -6
By 1890 the Sioux culture was shattered. They had been penned on reservations and kicked around by the government, their children stolen to be taken to white man's school, poor food and supplies, forced to farm on land that any white farmer would laugh at, and all the other injustices that are imposed on a defeated people. And always the militarly there to remind them if they stepped out of line they would be "punished." Did the Sioux intend a battle at Wounded Knee? NO! Did they want to be prepared to defend themselves after the military chased Big Foot's band all over the reservation? YES! It was the military who brazenly rummaged through the tepees, frightening the women and children. It was the reformed 7th Cavalry who pointed Hotchkis guns at the Indians, trying to intimidate them. And yes, it was the medicine man, Yellow Bird who told his followers to be strong and stand their ground. And don't forget that Sitting Bull, his son, many of his followers, and Indian police were killed trying to arrest him, in botched plan by the government to end the Ghost Dance. The Indians were forced into a situation that could have been avoided, but the memories of the LBH was still fresh in the 7th's mind. Wounded Knee could have never happened. If Forsyth was not in the command. And If Yellow Bird had never tell the young warriors to fight before december 29 1890. The warriors hid their weapons under blanket and fired at will when Yellow Bird put the dust in the air. And your difference between "to intend a fight" and "to defend themselves" is another way I hate about the Indians war. In any other war, we would have written that they wanted to fight. Because it is the Indians war, it is important to be careful with the words (about Indians of course, not about the other side). Actually the Indians intended to fight to defend themselves. The reason if it was right or dangerous is another debate. "Long prepared" means the first shot was not an accident or a lonely warrior decision ; many young warriors have taken the decision not to surrender and not to deposit their guns. Many Indians gave signs, earlier, that the were agressive. In another way, Forsyth and the cavalry made the same agressive signs, the Hotchkiss and even soldiers made a load mouvement with their guns. Indians began to leave the positions they should have had to deposit their guns. They hid their weapons under blankets and when Yellow Bird gave the signal, after having encouraged them, they fired. The context around this affair (Sitting Bull's murder) is important. It explains why the Indians wanted to fight. I'm not judging if it was good or too dangerous or whatever. Indians and soldiers have responsabilities in the battle. After that, the 7th has the entire responsability of the massacre. Miles intended to make a trial about that (he invited the Monneconjou Beard) but he failed.
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Post by bigpond on Apr 15, 2005 9:59:00 GMT -6
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Post by twomoons on Apr 15, 2005 10:28:12 GMT -6
A very informative article bigpond. Thankyou. Now we know why the Indians are distrustful of the whites, some even to this day, as has been attested to by others, in other threads here. We as Americans all, may "Remember the Alamo", but we the Indians, "Remember Wounded Knee"!
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Post by Tony on Jun 16, 2005 14:17:19 GMT -6
Hi--I'm new to ths forum--but hope you don't mind my comments--I have studied this battle for many years. Just one note---Benteen was given a direct order from his commanding officer--"come quick"--there is no room for discussion--he has to follow that order--He did not!! As for custer not knowing where Benteen was, I don't believe that to be true--who knows what Custer told Benteen--there was very reliable evidence that Benteen was told to return to the command fast if he did not fine anything--he did not!!--Custer sent Martini to find Benteen becasue Custer believed that Benteen was right on his back trail--as he should have been--also remember Cook, after giving Martini the message, instructed him where to go to find Benteen One last point--Boston on his return to Custer had just passed Benteen and more than likely told Custer that Benteen was on the way--as he, Boston, found Custer with no trouble and no indians to impede his trip.
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Post by weir on Jun 24, 2005 9:21:43 GMT -6
Hi--I'm new to ths forum--but hope you don't mind my comments--I have studied this battle for many years. Just one note---Benteen was given a direct order from his commanding officer--"come quick"--there is no room for discussion--he has to follow that order--He did not!! As for custer not knowing where Benteen was, I don't believe that to be true--who knows what Custer told Benteen--there was very reliable evidence that Benteen was told to return to the command fast if he did not fine anything--he did not!!--Custer sent Martini to find Benteen becasue Custer believed that Benteen was right on his back trail--as he should have been--also remember Cook, after giving Martini the message, instructed him where to go to find Benteen One last point--Boston on his return to Custer had just passed Benteen and more than likely told Custer that Benteen was on the way--as he, Boston, found Custer with no trouble and no indians to impede his trip. It so logical that it is obvious it could be a controversy about Benteen's behavior. The reality of LBH's mystery is less in facts than in behavior of some that are afraid what a deep research of the events could show about Reno's and Benteen's behaviors. On my point of view, a lot of LBH mystery is by will, at the time and right now.
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Post by Walt Cross on Jun 24, 2005 9:29:31 GMT -6
How much deeper can we go? Where do we do this deeper digging? You got any suggestions, because I want to go there.
Walt
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Post by weir on Jun 24, 2005 15:30:43 GMT -6
How much deeper can we go? Where do we do this deeper digging? You got any suggestions, because I want to go there. Walt The first work is not really on the field, but on yourself. Begin to consider that maybe the most ranked officers of the 7th did protect their ass from critics after LBH. And that behavior, added to Grant, Sherman, Terry and Terr's brother in law remarks, began to make clouds on LBH story. I have my personal computer near me, with the final version of the book for once. I will take some quotes from it (you ask me to quote, but usually I'm not writing on my own computer, so I don't have the sources near). See the Indians forces dilemma : Benteen, after the battle, said Indians were 1'500 (see Michno Lakota Noon chapter about Indians forces at LBH, pp.10-20), and in 1879 he told the Reno's Court of Inquiry 9'000. Imagine the work of historians to go back to the truth. Another quotes to you, about Reno & Benteen : Robert Utley blames Benteen's slow advance to LBH (Cavalier in buckskin, 159) like Louise Barnett (touched by Fire, 292) and Jeffry Wert (controversial life of George Custer, 347). Robert Utley blame Reno for his unexplainable and desastrous retreat (cavalier..., 159). Michno gave terrible marks to Benteen and Reno's behavior on Reno Hill and wrote they "dawdled" two hours while Custer was fighting (Lakota Noon, 297). You may not agree with Nightengale remarks (I agree, his LBH version is false), but you have to accept his founds of Reno's Court of Inquiry, in particular the false signatures (analysed by the FBI, file number 95-3820, reproduced in appendice in Nightengale's book) and the false map (study by Cartographic INC, Minesota, also reproduced by Nigthengale in appendice). See also that Robert Utley say good critics of Larry Sklenar in his foreword of 2001 edition of "Cavalier..." . As we all know, Larry Sklenar is a though critic of Reno and Benteen's behavior. You want to go there, Walt ? Stop searching explanation, stop ignoring Reno and Benteen's behavior after the battle, and begin to include in your research that maybe something went really wrong with those two guys. General Nelson Miles wrote in vain at the time that Custer was abandonned. I wonder why a so important military icon is ignored while we all know Benteen's fantasy. I will add for the second time LBHA member Bruce Trinque remarks, when I mailed him. He accepted to give me his point of view : "Overall, I tend to place greater fault on Benteen's earlier slowness in coming down Reno Creek to rejoin the main force." (May 8, 2005) "I think Benteen was deliberately slow, as a show of resentment against Custer. [...] it is conceivable that a more rapid march down Reno Creek might have meant that Benteen would have joined Custer rather than Reno -- and that would have presented interesting alternatives." (May 5, 2005) "But I do think Reno'a and particularly Benteen's behavior could at least be characterized as a "betrayal" of Custer's intent and wishes." (May 8, 2005) 'All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.' - Schopenhauer
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