Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by Son of a Cavalryman on Mar 30, 2005 15:41:20 GMT -6
I'll just take my soldiers and go home, so there!
SOACM
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Post by michigander on Mar 31, 2005 2:40:07 GMT -6
And I'll shall go to the sound of fire
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Post by markland on Mar 31, 2005 6:06:27 GMT -6
And I'll shall go to the sound of fire Good point Michiganer...if I recall correctly, there was no "sound of fire" until Benteen got near the bluffs. Certainly nothing was heard at the morass and no mention is made of it by either Godfrey, Benteen, Martin or for that matter, Weir. Therefore, to follow your logic trail, he did go to the "sound of fire", however the firing was unfortunately being predominantly done by the Indians and Reno's men were coming to where Benteen was heading. Best of wishes, Billy
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Post by michigander on Mar 31, 2005 6:49:26 GMT -6
That's not true. Benteen did'nt go to the sound of fire. Weir had gone. Late, because he was prevented by Reno. That the fire was heard when he was near the bluffs, what does it changes? Absolutely nothing. Benteen did'nt disobey the orders till he decided to stay with Reno. The greatest disagree start when he decided to stop. Concerning the fire, you can't tell what you tell. You was not there. Indians witness said they was firing on the air? Or poorly shooting? Well also other indians said that they was brave, shooting at the best, fighting on the hill as they never saw before. If this is fiction, also yours is fiction. You cannot believe just to what you prefere. Personally I think that both versions are true. However even if you would be right, don't change my point of view: fire of the enemy or not, if I hear fire I go there where my fellows are fighting. Even more if I have an order from my Commander to join him.
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Post by twomoons on Apr 1, 2005 9:28:40 GMT -6
SOACM Your question should prove to be interesting in the light of historical fiction. Now, i'm not denegrating your work here, as it will prove Benteen innocent without any shadow of doubt! If there was any fact to Custer involving Benteen in his plans it should appear here! ;D Because most who criticize him should seriously consider your approach to find out if their pet theorys match with or have any validity to the actual historical truth. I have refrained because of what you postulate is of course untrue, pure fiction, and I defend the historical truths of the battle, not the fictions that arise from it. Your approach though is interesting, and I will keep monitoring this thread. Lets see if those who hate Benteen can indeed defend him here by presenting proper evidence to support any notion that Custer could have involved him in his plans. In the end time will play a critical role in all decisions. Because time is not what Custer had! Thanks SOACM your contribution should make a difference. ;D
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Post by michigander on Apr 1, 2005 10:54:54 GMT -6
I accept all your post as it is your opinion, and even your cajoling SOACM, but I can't accept to be included on someone who hates Benteen or have "pet" theories. I have nothing pet. And I don't hate Benteen. You would have not to read just who condemn Custer. You would have to read also Don Horn books, that are, this yes, something that really makes a difference thorugh the mass of aligned writings. Concerning me, I just think Benteen made a mistake. I just don't know if his aid to Custer could have changed the story, what I am sure about is that I am convinced as a military, that he should have given that aid. Nothing more and nothing less. And this is a respectable opinion, as any of the opinions posted here, that don't deserve bad threatment or "pet" definitions.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 1, 2005 12:26:28 GMT -6
MICHIGANDER:
During Benteen's advance toward Reno, there was no gunfire heard until they got closer. Once firing was heard, the command sped up and arrived to view the valley fight with Reno's men in retreat.
It wasn't until after Benteen joined up with Reno that gunfire could be heard downriver (Custer). Weir left, without orders, to search for Custer.
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Post by weir on Apr 1, 2005 13:55:44 GMT -6
Average of the speeds of each battalion on June 25th 1876 (at trot).
Reno's : 4.5 miles/hour Custer's : 4.5 miles/hour
Benteen's : 2.3 miles /hour
Average of the speed of a cavalry unit at trot in the US military code (1865) : 5 miles/hour
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 1, 2005 14:01:42 GMT -6
RE: At a trot
Under what conditions was "at a trot"?
Benteen's scout was in rough, steep, and hilly terrain. It must have been slow going. Also, Lt. Gibson took the advance and searched, while the remainder of Benteen's command waited for word.
Custer/Reno were in rather less rough terrain and could go at a quicker pace.
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Post by weir on Apr 1, 2005 14:08:19 GMT -6
Well you can disagree with my opinion of Benteen. But all the historians agree that Benteen was very, very slow. The heat could be an argument but as we can see the average of Reno's advance and Custer's say the contrary. Could be the tire. But Benteen made two halts of 15 minutes each. Could be the thirst of the horses, but the horses refreshed twice. Could be the field, as you wrote. But after the morrass, Benteen only followed Custer's trail. Why could Custer go at 4.5 miles/hour and not Benteen's troopers ? RE: At a trot Under what conditions was "at a trot"? Benteen's scout was in rough, steep, and hilly terrain. It must have been slow going. Also, Lt. Gibson took the advance and searched, while the remainder of Benteen's command waited for word. Custer/Reno were in rather less rough terrain and could go at a quicker pace.
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Post by twomoons on Apr 1, 2005 14:15:57 GMT -6
Anyone who has ever rode a horse through "rough, steep, and hilly terrain" knows that this is just as tiring as running that animal. They become easily fatigued. They are in that regards similar to humans. Try it!
And if Benteen had been trotting, galloping those animals through that kind of terrain they would have tired faster. Made them more thirstier, and whose not to say that they didn't need to water these animals twice? How many times do you drink water under exertion during hot conditions?
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Post by weir on Apr 1, 2005 14:22:18 GMT -6
At TROT
Custer was 4.5 miles/hour with no halt.
Reno 4.5 miles/hour. with no halt.
Benteen 2.3 miles/hour after 30 minutes halt.
Army average : 5 miles/hour (I think the military code of US cavalry had a great knowledge of horses....).
At the morrass, when Weir disobeyed and ordered to the D Cy to move up without Benteen's approval, do you think Weir thought the horses needed more water ? When Weir got angry when Benteen ordered the trot after Martini's message, do you think Weir didn't understand the situation of his own horse and those from his company ?
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Post by twomoons on Apr 1, 2005 14:27:28 GMT -6
Good grief xav. Go to a riding stable, pay the fee and ride that horse till it drops dead! It's not a hum-v!!! Its a living breathing entity, just like you and me. It has its limits read the post above!!!!
Ride a horse before you make those estimates. They are average estimates at best predicated upon both running/galloping - whatever and WALKING/RESTING THEM. Take a spin on one of those ride them up and down hills and valleys through gulches over ridges etc. Lets see you and your horse make 4.5 miles per hour through that kind of terrain!!!
And once again you miss the mark! When Weir moved out his horse had been resting for about an hour. Read, don't suppose!
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Post by weir on Apr 1, 2005 14:33:46 GMT -6
Hey we are talking about history. Not about a horse-gear.
What you said is like proposing to go into a fight against Indians before telling judgement about Custer's defeat...
Average of the army was 5miles/hour. Under the heat, Custer and Reno rode 4.5 miles/hour. Benteen's troopers 2.3 miles. That is not just under the average, that is not just under the Custer and Reno's advance, that is half the average of normal unit at trot and Custer's and Reno's.
And for you a little mathematic exercise :
Benteen's first halt. 15 minutes. + Benteen's second halt. 15 minutes. -------------------------------------------------- = 30 minutes of halt. Godfrey testified Weir disobeyed at the second halt, near the lone teepee.
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Post by twomoons on Apr 1, 2005 14:57:58 GMT -6
Ride the horse xav! Just ride the horse, For Custer's sake. Then go out and drive your 4 wheel drive over the same terrain!
You have into put into your s****d figues REALITY. Get some!!!! And you won't ever know what it was like for Benteen's horses by sitting back in your armchair argueing about something you know very little about! As I said and will keep saying --- Go ride a horse first. Put a speedometer on him do whatever it takes to proove your theory and then come back and tell me your figures. And yes you do have to put into those figures FATIGUE, WALKING, THIRST & HEAT. Not just for the troopers but for the horses as well. It doesn't surprise me one bit that Benteen made so little time. And until you actually climb on the back of one your figures will mean nothing to me, nor should it to you!
I LIKE CUSTER WILL NOT RETURN ---- EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST TEACHER. RIDE THE HORSE!
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