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Post by mcaryf on Aug 1, 2006 4:30:41 GMT -6
Hi Crzhrs
I do not think you can assume that the Indians all got full cartridge belts. It is a bit like the comparison of man bites dog, dog bites man stories. I collected an empty cartidge belt off a dead soldier is not a big story but I got a full one is.
I am sure that some soldiers who were killed early would have had virtually full belts, equally I am sure that the Calhoun skirmish line probably used most of the ammo they carried. I am willing to concede that many of the horses would still have had ammo in the saddle bags. Another thing to consider is the extent to which the Indians would be able to marry up the carbines and the ammo. You can imagine that a squaw or youth might catch a horse with ammo in the saddle bags but would they just give it to any warrior with a new carbine or keep it for their family use once they have an appropriate weapon. Undoubtedly some weapons or ammo would also be just lost in the undergrowth ready for Scott and Fox to find years later. Thus I think an assumption that the Indians got around half is not unreasonable. This means 50 or so carbine rounds per man for 210 soldiers or about 11,000 rounds. This sounds a lot until you think that some of Reno's men shot that off in less than 30 minutes fighting. The pack train was carrying 24,000 rounds so really a much better prize in ammo terms.
Regards
Mike
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 1, 2006 4:44:44 GMT -6
Plus there's all that "shooting into objects on the ground". They could have expended quite a bit simply shooting into dead bodies.
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 1, 2006 7:06:39 GMT -6
Has any members of the Weir Advance made any statements about the amount of gunfire they heard . . . other than shooting at objects on the ground? And how much of that was there?
I guess we will have to rely on Indian testimony regarding the amount of weapons/ammo they recovered . . . and of course when it comes to numbers Indian "counting" may be questionable.
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 1, 2006 9:17:37 GMT -6
There's the added complication that a "full" belt might not have been an army-issue belt but one of the troopers' home-made prairie belts. These held much less ammo. Somebody (Thompson? Taylor?) said his could carry 17 rounds. That's a long way from the official 50. Still a nice windfall for an Indian, and worth remarking on in later reminiscences, but not huge ...
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 1, 2006 9:37:17 GMT -6
If the Indians shot into the ground with the Springfields would that make the cartridge cases left on the ground look like a skirmish line that had fought for awhile?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 1, 2006 9:46:32 GMT -6
No. If the bodies aren't in a line, even if the shots were fired from the same point above the body and the cases not collected, it wouldn't look like a firing line. BUT, we do have actual testimony that the Indians were seen firing into objects on the ground from those at Weir Point. We have no testimony saying Custer's men fired a shot. Just Indian stories (and common sense).
We have several references from officers at the RCOI and elsewhere that Indians fired "volleys" when a soldier became visible. Somehow, this natural event is excluded from considerations of the dubious "volleys" heard from the Custer field, which are over interpretated anyway.
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Post by Melani on Aug 1, 2006 13:08:07 GMT -6
I am confused about the defensibility of the timber. It seems that some of the officers and men felt that they could have held out there for quite some time, and others felt that Reno saved them all by retreating, even in such a precipitous fashion. I have just been reading some accounts of very small numbers of soldiers holding out for very long times with minimum fortifications in other situations. Would anybody like to comment on this? (In a sane, scholarly fashion, minus insults to the principals, please!) If they had held out longer and Benteen came up while they were in the timber, what would have happened? Would Benteen have been decimated?
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 1, 2006 13:20:52 GMT -6
Melani:
Again, after the fact some soldiers felt they could have held out in the timber . . . but while it was happening was a different story. There was little organization, separation of companies, Indians setting fire to the brush, warriors suddenly firing point blank into a group of men, including Reno and Bloody Knife.
While all that was happening . . . one would have to think it was better to get out and as fast as possible. The only objection would be the manner in which it was done . . . . which some called a panicked (I'm always confused about the spelling of panicked) rout while others say it was the only option.
Throughout history many outnumbered commands were able to hold out and survive IF they had a fortified position, superior weapons, and disciplined and resolute officers. That did occur at the LBH with the Reno/Benteen Hill fight in which they held the high ground and were someone fortified.
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Post by Melani on Aug 1, 2006 14:22:02 GMT -6
Thanks, crzhrs. What effect do you think Custer's attack at the other end had on the survival of Reno/Benteen? Would they have been overwhelmed without that distraction, or was their position too good for that?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 1, 2006 15:13:52 GMT -6
This reasoned and amiable exchange ought to be in another thread, dealing as it is not with hysterics and exclamation points.
Still, there are two issues. Could Reno have held out longer in the timber? Yes. How long? Opinions varied from 4 to 6 hours. And this doesn't address the survival of the stock standing about. That would translate to "night." Or "near night." How long at that point? Likely immediate slaughter or burn out. Does the responsible officer wait to find out? Does he know Benteen or the train will arrive or what the hey is going on? Doesn't the absence of meaninful songs of triumph from Custer's clogged headquarters suggest, well, issues that might delay or prevent reinforcement at this large assumblage of Indians' window? I'd think.
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 2, 2006 9:23:16 GMT -6
Is there something wrong in discussing an issue in an adult and courteous manner?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 2, 2006 9:41:08 GMT -6
DC-- I agree with your statement but my point was not whether they were in a skirmish line when killed but how long was the line engaged. If the Indians overran the skirmish line after they fired the first shots, and killed them all, they could pump carbine bullets into the dead bodies. The cartridge cases found would generally appear to be in the formation of the skirmish line.
This would also apply to individuals found on the battlefield. Just because cartridge cases are found in the vicinity of a body or later a marker doesn't mean the soldier fired them or put a good fight.
AZ Ranger
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 2, 2006 12:02:05 GMT -6
Was there any forensic work done by the surviving doctor regarding the types of wounds on Custer's command?
The bodies had been left to the elements and scavengers for two days and it may have been difficult for a non-medical person to determine wounds. Much testimony tells of the clubbing, slashing, cutting, and arrows in the bodies . . . but did anyone mention bullet wounds?
Fatal wounds could be a major factor in determining the type of battle . . . long range weapons fired by Indians or in-close wounds with knives, clubs, arrows, etc.
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Post by analyst on Aug 2, 2006 18:55:46 GMT -6
crzhrs: Rather interesting question regarding forensic's. An area I am somewhat familiar with. First off you have over two hundred bodies stripped naked and in many cases severely mutilated by savages. Intestines, brain's and internal organs exposed to fly and other insect activity for about two days in summer temperatures. The remaining troops were apprehensive the indians might return and the likely stench of many rotting horses and maggot activity would be enough to keep most from volunteering for a burial detail. The details that did go there did not even properly bury many of the bodies, as you probably know. Sagebrush being tossed on top of them. Custer is noted as having two bullet wounds at least, as I recall. An arrow in the genitals or other details like that was thought to horrible to report then, as now. Many were likley so badly cut up or mutilated as to preclude serious attempts at determining pre-mortum wounds as well as identification. You are right, a good autopsy of each of the 200 some bodies(no one seems to have a definite number) would provide many answers to questions like yours. Unfortunately, it is not available.
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Post by Tricia on Aug 2, 2006 20:25:39 GMT -6
As I seem to recall regarding the burial detail, speed was of the essence, just in case the Indians returned to finish what they started with GAC's battalion. I'm sure the time the dead soldiers' corpses spent in the sun and elements made the exact circumstances of their death almost impossible to determine. It must have been a horrific scene.
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