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Post by crzhrs on Jul 31, 2006 7:43:12 GMT -6
Benteen followed the same procedures in pacing his horses on the way back from his scout as did Custer did in attempting to rescue Hamiltion in 1867. If it was OK for Custer then it was OK for Benteen.
See that thread (OK FOR CUSTER . . .)
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 31, 2006 7:50:46 GMT -6
Many Indian witnesses said it was a hard fight . . . many Indians witnesses said it was a buffalo hunt.
Many white witnesses (survivors, not after the fact soldiers/authors/historians) said they could find little evidence of any organized stands.
As for Indian casualties . . . still after 130 years later there is only speculation. Any "new" evidence from oral history is questionable.
If the Indians were so disinclined to fight why did many warriors try to lure the Terry advance into a fight? Many warriors had dressed in captured soldier uniforms to fool the soldiers into believing it was possibly Custer's command.
The main reason the camps broke up was due to the impracticality of a huge village living off the land, forage for horses, game, sanitation, etc. The Indians were full charge of what they were doing.
The warriors were now in full position of captured weapons and a huge supply of ammo . . . if they were so inclined they could have taken on Terry.
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Post by mcaryf on Jul 31, 2006 7:59:40 GMT -6
Hi Crzhrs
Not sure you are right about the ammo, my guess is that they had used a lot of what they originally had and probably most of what they captured. They had after all fought for a whole day after defeating Custer. It was a pity for them they did not spot the pack train and get that before it reached Reno Hill. That way they get McDougall's men's guns plus ammo and the pack train ammo which would be about 4 times more than, say, half the ammo from Custer's men's bodies and horses.
Regards
Mike
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 31, 2006 9:59:48 GMT -6
mcaryf:
The fighting after Custer was finished off was long range sniping at Reno Hill. It's almost impossible to tell how much ammo the Indians used, but judging from Indian testimony they stated they retrieved full ammo belts and the ammo in saddle packs from Custer's dead. It may have been a large amount.
If the dead on Custer Hill was 210 that means 210 carbines and handguns, all unspent ammo in the weapons, ammo belts, saddle packs . . . it may have added to quite a bit.
Also included would be the weapons/ammo from the Reno dead . . . plus whatever firearms/ammo the warriors already had prior to the fight.
And from all reports most of the firing heard by the Reno survivors was the volley firing from Custer's command then sporadic firing after ward.
The warriors probably fired more arrows from concealment and when soldier numbers dwindled charged in for the kill . . . which more than likely was from clubs, knifes, and arrows rather than gunshots.
I don't think Indians would have wasted valuable ammo if they did not have clear shots either with Custer or afterward during the Reno siege.
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Post by sonofacavalryman on Jul 31, 2006 13:27:29 GMT -6
You guys can't apologize enough to wipe out the facts that Reno was a coward and Benteen wouldn't spit on Custer to put out a fire. Go ahead, make all the excuses you like, won't change the spots on these two leopards or should I say stripes, yellow ones at that.
Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 31, 2006 13:39:54 GMT -6
Reno was an experienced Civil War officer and had some experience in the Northwest against the Umatillas . . . . most people who are cowards do not join the military or fight in wars.
Benteen may not have liked Custer but would not have abandoned fellow soldiers due to his feelings for Custer.
Can you explain your beliefs for us?
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Post by historynut1876 on Jul 31, 2006 13:40:37 GMT -6
You guys can't apologize enough to wipe out the facts that Reno was a coward and Benteen wouldn't spit on Custer to put out a fire. Go ahead, make all the excuses you like, won't change the spots on these two leopards or should I say stripes, yellow ones at that. Son of a Cavalryman I don't mind your point of view. But at least state your case, and not take these short pokes and jabs. It's inflammatory (which you know) , but mostly it's insulting to the other participants.
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Post by Tricia on Jul 31, 2006 13:57:54 GMT -6
I'm thinking this is the "bad cop routine."
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Post by sonofacavalryman on Jul 31, 2006 15:09:34 GMT -6
The shortcomings of these two men have been hashed and rehashed on this forum. You can't change history by making excuses for cowards and men without honor.
Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by Tricia on Jul 31, 2006 15:19:11 GMT -6
Then perhaps we should rehash the multiple shortcomings of Lt. Col. Custer? That is always much more fun ... well, at least I think so! Or would a thorough conversation regarding Lt. Harrington suit you better?
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Post by sonofacavalryman on Jul 31, 2006 15:29:26 GMT -6
I ain't admittin' nuthin'. The posters of this thread are too satisfied with their conclusions.
Son of a Cavalryman
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Post by douglas on Jul 31, 2006 15:52:56 GMT -6
Crzhrs, Custer said they moved at a "brisk trot". According to Gray's timeline, Benteen moved at a slow walk. Where is the comparison?
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Post by Tricia on Jul 31, 2006 15:57:46 GMT -6
I ain't admittin' nuthin'. The posters of this thread are too satisfied with their conclusions. Son of a Cavalryman Chocolate Chip Cookies (makes 3 dozen): pre-heat oven to 375 degrees fahrenheit. 2 sticks butter or margarine, softened 3/4 C. granulated sugar 3/4 C. dark brown sugar, packed 2 1/4 C. flour 1/2 tsp. baking soda 1 tsp. salt 1 tsp. vanilla 2 eggs, beaten 1-12oz. package, semi-sweet chocolate chips Sift together dry ingredients and set aside. Add eggs and vanilla to butter, whisk until light and fluffy. Add dry ingredients to wet. Fold in chocolate chips and with a teaspoon, drop spoonfuls of mixture upon greased cookie pan. Cook for 8-12 minutes until golden brown. Cool on newspaper. Enjoy!
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Post by analyst on Jul 31, 2006 16:07:55 GMT -6
ou guys can't apologize enough to wipe out the facts that Reno was a coward and Benteen wouldn't spit on Custer to put out a fire. Go ahead, make all the excuses you like, won't change the spots on these two leopards or should I say stripes, yellow ones at that."
Son of a Cavalryman
As much as I hate to, I am afraid I most disagree with this statement, I believe Benteen would have spit on Custer if his hair were on fire! In fact I think he might have done worse (Yes, you know what I mean!) than that if he had the chance. I have always been intrigued about the reports that Benteen made a report to the newspapers that Custer had deserted troops to be massacred at the Washita. Supposedly Custer found out about it and who did it. It was claimed Benteen was ready to let the matter go to a gunfight but Custer backed down. Don't know how much truth is in all this. One thing is sure Benteen had no use for Custer at all and vice-versa. Not so sure about Reno being a coward, I have argued that back and forth myself. I think he was under tremendous stress and the decisions he made were certainly not perfect. I think when Yellowknifes brains splattered over him he simply lost it. His reported drinking prior to the battle I personally find inexcusable. Had he not retreated to the most suitable defensive position the pack train likely would have been lost and possibly Benteen's detachment as well. It does not look to me like a defensive detachment could be effective in this situation with indian warriors racing along side you. Perhaps after the river was crossed, maybe. At best, Reno appears incompetent. If he did indeed suggest leaving the wounded and running for the Crows Nest or other refuge as Benteen many years later reported, that would indeed, be cowardly.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 31, 2006 22:43:42 GMT -6
douglas -- Gray's time line for Benteen (page 272) shows after meeting Kanipe the speeds are 4.7 for 16 minutes, 7.5 for 8 minutes and 6.0 mph for 10 minutes. He travel 3.25 miles in 34 minutes for an average speed of 5.74 miles per hour which is a trot. Even if you include the 4 minutes he watches Reno the speed is still 5.13 mph.
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