Warrior woman at Little Bighorn Battle

[Timothy Ratliff]

This story reminds me of the one in Lakota Noon where Yellow Nose describes whacking an officer with auburn hair he believed to be the leader over the head with a saber captured in a previous battle and knocking him over, but the push of battle pushing him away from the man. My only concern with the story is: what happened to the guidon Yellow Nose claimed to be hitting everyone with earlier? Other Indians mentioned him capturing a guidon as well, so that lends credence to the story.
Another possibility that no one ever considers is that Custer's killer either was killed in a subsequent battle or died before he could give his account. My personal theory is that perhaps several of the Indians attributed to "killing Custer" DID kill a man in buckskin, but either they or the interpreter automatically assumed it was Custer. At least seven men killed with Custer had some clothing article made of buckskin that day, whether on themselves or their horse. So quite a few Indians would have killed a man in or with buckskin that day.
Does anyone know when the story of Buffalo Calf Road Woman is going to come out in its entirety and not as a sound byte?

[crzhrs]

I still say there were a number of Indians who recognized not only GAC but Dorman, Boyer, Bloody Knife, and others IMMEDIATELY after the battle. The majority may not have known, but surely those Indians who had been on reservations, were able to recognize some of the officers. Dorman had a Sioux wife and spent time with them, BK spent much of his youth with the Sioux, and Boyer had a Sioux mother. Rain-in-the-Face was personally arrested by Tom Custer and swore revenge against him. Kate Bighead knew Custer from her time on the res.

More than likely no one could be recognized during the height of fighting, but surely once it was over the Indians knew many of the slain troopers/scouts.

[Jimmy Joe Meeker]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I still say there were a number of Indians who recognized not only GAC but Dorman, Boyer, Bloody Knife, and others IMMEDIATELY after the battle. The majority may not have known, but surely those Indians who had been on reservations, were able to recognize some of the officers."

Yeah, of course they would. I can't understand why some people think otherwise. SOME of the Cheyennes (and maybe southern Lakota) would have known Custer from his time on the southern Plains and he was clearly known among the Lakota during his time at Fort Lincoln. SOME of them would surely have been able to recognise his body and those of the others crzhrs mentions.

[crzhrs]

Tim:

According to the on-line news article, the Cheyenne planned to tell more about Buffalo Calf Road Woman and other events that took place during the battle, later this year. Hopefully they will reveal more about what happen and clear up some of the unsolved answers.

Of course, anything they may say will be hotly denounced for a number of reasons, especially if it is not what people want to hear.

[Scout]

I've dug some digging into this ridiculous story and found the following;

This is taken from the book ''Massacre at Cheyenne Hole'' by John Monnett, published by the University of Colorado Press 1999 Dr. Monnett teaches history at Metropolitan State College in Denver and has written several books on the Indian wars.

MURDER OF THE JOHN GERMAN FAMILY & BUFFALO CALF WOMAN

September 11, 1874, Kansas. ''...the family was about a day east of Fort Wallace..when Cheyennes descended on their wagon in the early light. There were nine in the German family; John; his wife, Lydia, one son, Stephen, nineteen, and daughters Rebecca Jane, twenty, Catherine, seventeen, Johanna, fifteen, Sophia, twelve, Julia, seven and Addie, five.

''The bloodletting was over in a few moments. John German was shot first. Lydia was killed by a tomahawk while trying to escape to a nearby ravine. Both parents were scalped while they were alive. Then Medicine Water's wife, Buffalo Calf Woman, sank an ax into John German's head and left it there.'' I won't go on with the rest of the murders, pretty gruesome stuff especially the kids, but I wonder if this is someone I want to write a novel around? I think I would have done more research into BCW before I glorified her in a novel.

Is this the source for the Custer story? I don't know but I will agree with crzhrs's last postings above...'' it is not what people want to hear.'' This family was brutually murdered an it appears BCW gleefully had a hand in the merriment.

Now when will this new evidence on BCW be released? and she killed Custer with an ax as well? I am waiting for release date on this story...can hardly wait.

[Tricia]

scout2 said:

I've dug some digging into this ridiculous story and found the following;

This is taken from the book ''Massacre at Cheyenne Hole'' by John Monnett, published by the University of Colorado Press 1999 Dr. Monnett teaches history at Metropolitan State College in Denver and has written several books on the Indian wars.

MURDER OF THE JOHN GERMAN FAMILY & BUFFALO CALF WOMAN

September 11, 1874, Kansas. ''...the family was about a day east of Fort Wallace..when Cheyennes descended on their wagon in the early light. There were nine in the German family; John; his wife, Lydia, one son, Stephen, nineteen, and daughters Rebecca Jane, twenty, Catherine, seventeen, Johanna, fifteen, Sophia, twelve, Julia, seven and Addie, five.

''The bloodletting was over in a few moments. John German was shot first. Lydia was killed by a tomahawk while trying to escape to a nearby ravine. Both parents were scalped while they were alive. Then Medicine Water's wife, Buffalo Calf Woman, sank an ax into John German's head and left it there.'' I won't go on with the rest of the murders, pretty gruesome stuff especially the kids, but I wonder if this is someone I want to write a novel around? I think I would have done more research into BCW before I glorified her in a novel.

Is this the source for the Custer story? I don't know but I will agree with crzhrs's last postings above...'' it is not what people want to hear.'' This family was brutually murdered an it appears BCW gleefully had a hand in the merriment.

Now when will this new evidence on BCW be released? and she killed Custer with an ax as well? I am waiting for release date on this story...can hardly wait.

But Scout--

Might I ask: if you were writing a novel from a Native American perspective, could you pen anything sympathetic to Custer--a man who not only took female captives at Washita, but seemed to make the most of one of them sexually (Monaseetah/Meotzi)? How about a tale about the Russian Grand Duke's visit in 1872, when it seems Miss Spotted Tail was the primary focus of GAC's attentions? Is this beyond the pale of Custer-acceptability?

Would it really matter in the realm of fiction? Just a thought ...

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[Scout]

Leyton,

That's mild stuff compared to what Indians did to white captives, I give you hundreds upon hundreds of those accounts, but the point is, this is a novel, period. Total fiction. correct? But some of you seem to think it is based on some sort of truth, and are trying to sell it as such. This is probably the source for the killing Custer with an axe story, which has been whispered from ear to ear for so long in the end it was Custer she killed. If the data is correct BCW took part in the murders & mutilations of the John German family...with an axe, her favorite weapon for dispatching those evil white settlers and their children. Maybe a better name for the book would be, ''Have Axe, Will Travel.''

[Ackley18]

ricemclean said:

scout2 said:

I've dug some digging into this ridiculous story and found the following;

This is taken from the book ''Massacre at Cheyenne Hole'' by John Monnett, published by the University of Colorado Press 1999 Dr. Monnett teaches history at Metropolitan State College in Denver and has written several books on the Indian wars.

MURDER OF THE JOHN GERMAN FAMILY & BUFFALO CALF WOMAN

September 11, 1874, Kansas. ''...the family was about a day east of Fort Wallace..when Cheyennes descended on their wagon in the early light. There were nine in the German family; John; his wife, Lydia, one son, Stephen, nineteen, and daughters Rebecca Jane, twenty, Catherine, seventeen, Johanna, fifteen, Sophia, twelve, Julia, seven and Addie, five.

''The bloodletting was over in a few moments. John German was shot first. Lydia was killed by a tomahawk while trying to escape to a nearby ravine. Both parents were scalped while they were alive. Then Medicine Water's wife, Buffalo Calf Woman, sank an ax into John German's head and left it there.'' I won't go on with the rest of the murders, pretty gruesome stuff especially the kids, but I wonder if this is someone I want to write a novel around? I think I would have done more research into BCW before I glorified her in a novel.

Is this the source for the Custer story? I don't know but I will agree with crzhrs's last postings above...'' it is not what people want to hear.'' This family was brutually murdered an it appears BCW gleefully had a hand in the merriment.

Now when will this new evidence on BCW be released? and she killed Custer with an ax as well? I am waiting for release date on this story...can hardly wait.

But Scout--

Might I ask: if you were writing a novel from a Native American perspective, could you pen anything sympathetic to Custer--a man who not only took female captives at Washita, but seemed to make the most of one of them sexually (Monaseetah/Meotzi)? How about a tale about the Russian Grand Duke's visit in 1872, when it seems Miss Spotted Tail was the primary focus of GAC's attentions? Is this beyond the pale of Custer-acceptability?

Would it really matter in the realm of fiction? Just a thought ...

Regards,
Leyton McLean

You are always asking for proof. What PROOF do you have concerning Monaseetah/Meotzi? Benteen's comments?

And as Scout pointed out, this was mild stuff when compared to what happened to captives that fell into Indian hands -- multiple degradations, mutilations, etc. If you were lucky, you died.

[Leyton McLean CSA]

If I'm mistaken about the procurement of Monaseetah, then I'm one of several. There's also Ben Clark's comments in addition to Benteen's. Utley covers it quite well. But the fundimental question--in regards to Custer--seems to be "how much is spin?"

Unfortunately, that's something I'm not sure any of us can know beyond a reasonable doubt.

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[Tricia]

scout2 said:

Leyton,

That's mild stuff compared to what Indians did to white captives, I give you hundreds upon hundreds of those accounts, but the point is, this is a novel, period. Total fiction. correct? But some of you seem to think it is based on some sort of truth, and are trying to sell it as such. This is probably the source for the killing Custer with an axe story, which has been whispered from ear to ear for so long in the end it was Custer she killed. If the data is correct BCW took part in the murders & mutilations of the John German family...with an axe, her favorite weapon for dispatching those evil white settlers and their children. Maybe a better name for the book would be, ''Have Axe, Will Travel.''

Scout--

What's true? This seems to be one of the dangers in discussing fiction at a historical website. I have learned to be really reticent to talk about the subject matter altogether. I think historical fiction can at its best inspire the reader to begin their own research and it can also give the reader a good idea of the atmosphere of the time, the zeitgeist--if you like. That said, it's difficult to judge a book when it hasn't yet been released--so I'll hold my comments on "Warrior Women."



Regards,
Leyton McLean

[Scout]

Leyton,

With all due respect, and believe me, I do respect you, you know that and I'm not condemming 'Warrior Woman' at all. It is a novel, fiction, I understand that, but to try and give it any kind of connection to reality and actual fact is ridiculous. And to try and sell any part of it as being rooted in fact is stupid. I do want to point out that this maybe the source of the killing Custer with an axe story and that the real BCW appears to have been a homicidal maniac in her connection with the killing of the John German family, and as far as your remarks about Custer taking female captives and ''making the most of them sexually,'' well I won't finish the rest of the German story in regard to what happened to the women and young girls, and believe me you don't want to know. There is no comparisons to what that 'evil' George Custer did and the real heroic Buffalo Calf Woman did. If you are going to write about real people expect some criticisms, people will find the real truth and call you down on it. It's the nature of the biz. Eight foot tall Indians and killing custer with an axe...fiction is fiction.

[Tricia]

Scout--

Thanks for your comments, and no, I am not trying to pick a fight. But we're entering the land known as philosophy ... or something like that. I, for one, have shied away from making this--and other Custer boards--a scorecard of who did what to whom worse. And I'll continue to do so. It gets us nowhere. Both sides in the Indian Wars perpetuated horrors upon the other, and though I am Native American, I'm not so blind to ignore that fact. War ain't pretty. And no, I wasn't implying that Custer was evil incarnate for engaging in relations that were--at that time--socially accepted as a fruit of a hard-earned victory. This stuff (I am talking in generalities here, not just Custer) happened. It's just my old mantra that there is always the other side ...

If you haven't figured it out by now, I'm an enjoyer of historical fiction, but I'm fully cognisant of its limitations--and there are many. Is it a relevant art form and form of expression? I personally think it is, as long as the reader enters the book with the the clear caveat: this is fiction. And yeah, I'm quite aware that if you're writing about a historical figure, you're gonna get hammered and don't expect prizes from a historical website ... that's one of the reasons I don't think it's entirely appropriate to discuss the genre here. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[weir]

Buffalo Calf Road Woman is not even the only woman that fought at Little Bighorn. What about Moving Robe ? And those testimonies about women charging with Gall at LBH ?

M. Mac Lean you need to read more about Custer. Nothing in GAC's behavior can let us think he did have an affair with Mona-se-tah. Read his letter to his wife, look closely to his life and read his comments, book, and you will see what the man Custer thought.
Custer was deeply in love with his wife, and could not have an affair with somebody else. For the same reason Libby never re-married.

A lot of people think Tom Custer could have an affair with Mona-se-tah. Tom Custer was the "bad boy" of the two Custers in the 7th.

[Tricia]

West--

As I stated before, if I'm wrong, then I'm very fine company. I'm not casting judgment upon GAC. What happened, happened. I personally think the affair (if one could really call it that) between he and Monaseetah occurred--and yes, I also believe he loved Libbie dearly. But GAC was a complex personality (to say the least) with good and bad qualities, also a man of his times--and remember that this whole idea about the family unit as a place of nurture and respect was a Victorian ideal, a mere invention. Personally, I think the best evaluation of the Custers' complicated marriage and relationship can be found on pages 106-108 in Utley's "Cavalier in Buckskin." To say it [the Custer marriage]was a paradise of sorts upon earth would not be doing justice to its two passionate participants.

I'll go with Utley's perceptions any time.

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[alfuso]

Interesting. How does a mere member move things to other threads in here?

alfuso


I'm moving all responses to this particular topic (Meotzi/Monaseetah) to "Custeriana Queries" so not to hijack this thread ...

Regards,
LMC[/quote]