Crazy Horse, Loved or Hated?

[strange]

Hello every one! I've spent so much time on Custer that I felt it was about time I got on the Horse.
What was Crazy Horse's standing amongst the Indians? I hear he was considered arrogant within the culture.
(also, for the record does any one know his height/weight/weaponry skills? Just a thought would be real appreciated.)

[brock]

I think the answer to your question depends on the Lakota you are talking about. To those who were for accommodation with the government, he was a pain and became a threat when he entered the Red Cloud Agency. To those who wished to live the traditional Lakota life he was revered. According to members of the Clown family (who have already had their family tree accepted as genuine at a long contested court case at Rosebud tribal court naming them as the true descendants of Crazy Horse and are now looking to close the door on anyone looking to be added to their tree...this battle has been six years long...Judge Whiting overseeing), their oral history points to one very important fact. When Crazy Horse was on a hemblecha (visionquest) he was taken to the south and taught a song. It is known alternatively as the 'Tashunke Witko song' and the 'Chief's Song'. In that song, he sings that he was taken to south and his relatives in the south brought him back. Why is that such a big deal? Because the south is where the Lakota go when they die in preparation for joining the Creator. To put it in perspective, in Judeo-Christian terms he spent time in Heaven and returned. This had never been done before and it caused people to look at him differently. Some vehemently pro and others vehemently con.
Couple that with the fact that he charged several times into the teeth of an enemy onslaught and came out unscathed and you can begin to understand the fervor that developed among his followers. And any time you have that kind of fervor it creates enemies within your own people.
The family says he stood about 5' 10" or 11" and had a medium build. As far as weaponry, that's not played up as high. One of the Lakota's highest virtues is bravery or counting coup where a warrior humiliates an opposing warrior by riding or running up and touching him in combat. To kill that opposing warrior is a downgrade in bravery, thus weaponry skills at least in combat were not as highly regarded and thus stories of weaponry skills are heard more in their ability to hunt. In that category the family says Crazy Horse was an excellent provider of game...so I think it's safe to say he had an accurate bow and was a good marksman.

[Scout]

I don't think accommodation with the government had a thing to do with it but rather just plain old personality conflicts. For some reason we never think that happened/happens in Indian society but they are no different than whites. Gall had a strong dislike of Sitting Bull...for what reasons will never be truly known and Gall himself was the butt of some Indian jokes. Wasn't Crazy Horse shot for trying to steal another man's wife? The same problems existed in their society. In many cases politics had nothing to do with animosity and hatred but rather some hidden personal reason. Look at the personality conflicts within the Seventh.

[strange]

Yo' Scout! Good call, I often get a little tired of seeing whole tribes of the same personalities when Indians are depicted on film. The Indians are no doubt of good characters and intelligence, but obviously they are not ALL joined in some kind of "wise old Indian" mystic circle where each of them have conversations with the wind and dances in the dust, etc. Thats why I can never quite always get a good grasp on their individual personalities. I try my best, but I usually stick around the Custeriana board since I feel I have a firm grasp on the General.
Good info on 'Horse, Brock, I loved it! Keep it coming everybody!This is good stuff.

[harpskiddie]

strange:

There is a thread on page 2 of this same board titles Crazy Horse Genealogy, which contains ten pages of information about this Lakota leader. Check it out. You might also want to spring for Kingsley Bray's new book, which is mentioned on the thread.

Gordie,
my baby loves western movies. my baby loves western movies. Pow!! Pow!! Crackatingoang......

[brock]

Scout,
You bring up an excellent point. I think we are very similar. So that would make it very natural to turn the tables. Let's say that this country was, heaven forbid, invaded by an outside force and some of our fellow countrymen decided to work with these invaders and accommodate them in many ways. Philosophically one could call it a political difference. Emotionally I think the feelings would run far deeper, like the willingness to fight to hold onto our way of life against those that would take it away and those of our own countrymen that would help the invaders succeed.
It was a very divisive issue and still is. When you see a neighbor helping an invader take away your home and nearly all you own your opinion of that neighbor diminishes. And of course with your neighbor understanding your growing anger he's going to work even closer with the invader to insure that you can't strike back. I'm not saying there never were personality issues but I wouldn't underestimate the accommodation/free roamer issue.
As far as Gall, it's rough for me to speak about him except that I do know he embraced the church early on when he came to the rez and was held up by McLaughlin as a 'model Indian'. I can speak to Sitting Bull since I've been recording Sitting Bull's lineal great grandson Ernie LaPointe's oral history as he heard it from his Mother Angeline Spotted Horse (Standing Holy's daughter who in turn was Sitting Bull's youngest child). When Sitting Bull came to Standing Rock he was denied enrollment by McLaughlin because he held to the traditional ways and thus was not a 'model Indian', and yet he still had a substantial following...much to McLaughlin's chagrin. A rivalry may have been born from that with Agent McLaughlin as a possible instigator. (His brother-in-law, Grey Eagle, gave him the patch of land on the Grand River to live on.)

[grahamew]

And remember, there were political differences that had nothing to do with a person's stance on white men...

[crzhrs]

If we think there were many differences among Indians within their own tribes all we have to do is look at what is going on among American Politics today. We hear many mean and viscious things said about others when we disagree, especially about major issues taking place.

We shouldn't really think Indians were any different when it came to resolving the issues they had when dealing with the US government.

Really no different than what is taking place in Iraq among the various "tribes" who are killing each other even though they are "Iraqis".

It is always wrong when we judge others by our culture.

[strange]

Well its definitely not good to judge any at all, but rather to discern right from wrong and leave God the decision of deciding Heaven and Hell. Philosophically speaking I would prefer to think its always wrong to discern INDIVIDUALS by the MASSES. Its okay to disagree with cultures, because some traditions are meant to be broken, not to say that of all traditions, but traditions of any that are in the wrong are not to be accepted. Now I'm sure sounding like I'm coming down heavy on the Indians, not my intention in the least, but rather people get real heavy on Idolizing culture and blinding themselves to wrong dealings.
I'm just starting my journey into Crazy Horse's legacy, and I'll admit that, like Custer, his personality as we perceive him is far too joined with that of the tribe and to find things out on him you have to separate the individual from the masses. Crazy Horse is to be considered a unique individual, and the indians would have stayed in the fight longer if they had 20 just like him. But in the end, there is but one 'Horse, one G.A.Custer, one Patton, one Geronimo, one Blackbeard. When these men go, they are off to another land and good and bad things happen at their departure.

Strange ONE!

["Hunk" Papa]

Strange, there is a book by Stephen Ambrose, "Crazy Horse and Custer, The Parallel Lives of Two American Warriors" that draws comparisons between the two named characters. Just as Custer had his 'circle of friends' and those who opposed him, so did Crazy Horse. Both being the driven characters they were, it is not surprising that feelings for or against them ran high with those polarised emotions of admiration and jealously looming large.
But then, we can all testify to the fact that none of us is universally either loved or hated. In fact, I actually know one person who doesn't like me!

Hunk

[Diane Merkel]

Impossible!

[crzhrs]

Then there is always the Marie Sandoz version of CH's life. A little "romanticized" but still worth reading.

It seems Bray's newer book is the one to go with. Highly recommended with many footnotes and references based on statements from CH's peers and descendants.

["Hunk" Papa]

Jeez Crazy, now I have a nap hand 'cos I thought you might be the odd man out! Ooh, I've come over all emotional.

Hunk

["Hunk" Papa]

Once again the rheumy old eyes have deceived me. Wrong red stars and not as many as you, sorry Crazy.
Goddess, you are biased because you have experienced my hugability. You have to accept that there are those that haven't and like Crazy Horse and Custer, jealousy needs to be factored in!

Hunk

["Hunk" Papa]

Strange, getting back to the thread, have you yet purchased the two DVD's, Part I and Part II of 'The Authorized Biography of Crazy Horse and His Family'? If not, you can get them via the website www.reelcontact.com - worthwhile and I believe there are two further parts to come.

Hunk