Suicide Boys

[Diane Merkel]

I would be interested to know if you agree that the Suicide Boys were "the decisive force in the fight."

Later in that same century American Indians such as the Cheyenne would revere men who belonged to the Dog Soldier warrior sect. The Dog Soldiers were known to wear a long sash which in times of greatest peril they would peg to the earth vowing to die where they stood in the defense of their colleagues. At the Battle of the Little Bighorn it is now believed that a small group of Lakota and Cheyenne warriors who called themselves “The Suicide Boys” were the decisive force in the fight. The chief historian at the Little Bighorn now believes that it was the desperate charge by these warriors who had pledged to die in the battle who finally broke the last resistance among Custer’s beleaguered 7th Cavalry.

That reference is found in the lower half of this article: www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5731

[historynut1876]

My belief is that the "suicide boys" were not the decisive force in the fight. First you have to consider what type of fighting force remained by the time they led their charge. In all probability, the battle was already over for all intents and purposes. Sort of like they broke the resistance of an already broken resistance. Of course, no one can say just how many soldiers were left at the time of the suicide assault, nor what their status was. I personally don't place much emphasis on it.

As for comparing Cheyenne Dog Soldiers and sucide boys to Arab terrorists, I don't see the similarity. If a Cheyenne warrior walked into a saloon and started killing indiscriminately to take as many whites as possible before they could kill him, then yes, but otherwise, I just don't think the comparison holds up.

And as for the defenders of the Alamo, they were in a defensive fight, not on the offensive. They didn't go to Santa Ana, Santa Ana came to them. Chiaventone is confusing anyone who is in a battle knowing they will die (expecting it anyway) to Arab's blowing themselves up (in a battle of ideologies, not a battle proper). It is two different topics. And the guys at the Alamo weren't expecting virgins afterwards. And if given the choice, I could just hear Davy Crockett saying, "Sounds good except for one detail. How about those virgins before instead of after?"

Of course, I'm probably totally wrong. It's been known to happen.

[jjm]

Indians weren't big fans of throwing away their lives - hence pulling out of the Wagon Box Fight. Dog Soldiers etc could be released by their colleagues. I'm not so sure about the whole suicide boy thing and I agree with historynut above.

[bubbabod]

Historynut, I read your post about Chiaventone's comparing the suicide boys or Alamo or whatever to Arab terrorists. I went through the posts and didn't see anything, offhand, about Chiviantone. Could you please direct me to it? Thanks.

[historynut1876]

bubbabod said:

Historynut, I read your post about Chiaventone's comparing the suicide boys or Alamo or whatever to Arab terrorists. I went through the posts and didn't see anything, offhand, about Chiviantone. Could you please direct me to it? Thanks.

Scroll to the bottom... he is the author of the article.

[markland]

Banzai attacks at Tarawa? I need to refresh my memory but I didn't think that there were any there. Guadalcalnal and Saipan, yes.

Billy

[shan]

Whilst i would generally be an advocate for the Indian accounts of the battle, I have long had difficulty with much of John Stands in timbers accounts, primarily because there seems to be little, or no corroboration of the suicide boys attack from the Sioux, many of whom would have witnessed such an eventily because.
jjm is right in saying that contrary to the type of popular myths expounded by Hollywood, warriors were by an large reluctant to risk getting killed for no good reason. Given that no tribe could afford to lose its young men willy nilly, enough young men died through hunting and general accidents, without risking unessacary deaths through warfare, warfare itself was often a stylized affair, one that allowed the warriors to look good without risking being killed, in other words, it was an in built cultural shackle on their behavior. Having said that, when one reads the accounts of say White Bull, or even One Bull and Crazy Horse, one always has to allow for the hot headed individual who was going to do what he needed to do in spite of what the elders might think.
Do I think there was a suicide attack in the way JSIT talks about? No, but it wouldn't surprise me if several hot heads rushed forward, dragging others in their wake, and thus a legend was born.
Oh and by the way, it is really down to JSIT book that we have the Custer moving on to the Northern Ford theory, there doesn't seem to be much other witness evidence of the command being much further on than the museum site,
Shan

[mcaryf]

Having read the original article about suicide missions I think he could have picked some better examples if he really wanted to shock people in the West.

You could for example argue that being an RAF bomber pilot operating over Germany was virtually in this category given that they had to undertake so many missions and casualty rates were high enough so that the odds were heavily against survival. For all the fancy words about "area bombing" the actual targets were also in the main German civilians because the British navigation systems could just about find a city but not much else. The USAAF did start with an attempt to have more precision but joined the British area bombing campaign from time to time.

Before too many of you jump on me I will agree that there is a major difference in putting yourself into a situation where you are very likely to get killed and actually doing it to yourself and an even greater difference in knowing that your targets are only civilians rather than mainly civilians.

Regards

Mike

[noggy]

Did the Cheyenne and Sioux have a word for these warriors? I doubt "Suicide Boys" is directly translated... I know there was something called the "Dying Dance" undertaken before the fight, but what about these men themselves?

[crzhrs]

Oct 17, 2018 4:58:15 GMT -6 noggy said:

Did the Cheyenne and Sioux have a word for these warriors? I doubt "Suicide Boys" is directly translated... I know there was something called the "Dying Dance" undertaken before the fight, but what about these men themselves?

You may want to check out this link about the "Suicide Boys" aka Dying Dance Ritual:

www.greecetravel.com/

[noggy]

Oct 25, 2018 13:06:44 GMT -6 crzhrs said:

Oct 17, 2018 4:58:15 GMT -6 noggy said:

Did the Cheyenne and Sioux have a word for these warriors? I doubt "Suicide Boys" is directly translated... I know there was something called the "Dying Dance" undertaken before the fight, but what about these men themselves?

You may want to check out this link about the "Suicide Boys" aka Dying Dance Ritual:

www.greecetravel.com/

Well I`ve been to Greece and nearly committed suicide by beer there in my younger days, but can`t find anything about Sioux and Cheyenne warriors in your link.

All the best,
Noggy

[AZ Ranger]

I agree that suicide boys is a bad translation. It is more like we will fight to the death if necessary and not leave the battlefield until a decision is reached. It is common knowledge that CQB leads to death. The preferred option is that the other guy dies but it is war at close in distances. Those willing to close to CQB distances would celebrate since some would not come back.

That's my take on it.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[crzhrs]

Oct 26, 2018 1:02:52 GMT -6 noggy said:

Oct 25, 2018 13:06:44 GMT -6 crzhrs said:

You may want to check out this link about the "Suicide Boys" aka Dying Dance Ritual:

www.greecetravel.com/

Well I`ve been to Greece and nearly committed suicide by beer there in my younger days, but can`t find anything about Sioux and Cheyenne warriors in your link.

All the best,
Noggy

Oops! Sorry . . . just came back from Greece and apparently was on a travel website and copied the wrong link for the Suicide Boys. Here is the RIGHT link:

www.friendslittlebighorn.com/gazettsuicideboys.htm

Greece is lovely . . . and you can compare the Indian warriors to the Greek Warriors . . . I wouldn't want to face either of them!

[AZ Ranger]

Some of this comes from John Stands in Timber.

Here is what JSIT states page 455 A Cheyenne Voice "--- not exactly suicide in English, some old fashioned words used back there--- just like a ceremony to give the spirit away---and nearest expression used is the Young Man is an Old Man--- he is young but he is about to die."

What is talked about is that you will be remembered if you die in battle but is less likely if you die of old age.


This really gets into what constitutes a warrior spirit even into today standards.

AZ Ranger

[crzhrs]

Oct 28, 2018 7:03:10 GMT -6 AZ Ranger said:

Some of this comes from John Stands in Timber.

Here is what JSIT states page 455 A Cheyenne Voice "--- not exactly suicide in English, some old fashioned words used back there--- just like a ceremony to give the spirit away---and nearest expression used is the Young Man is an Old Man--- he is young but he is about to die."

What is talked about is that you will be remembered if you die in battle but is less likely if you die of old age.


This really gets into what constitutes a warrior spirit even into today standards.

AZ Ranger

We have to be very careful regarding interpretation of the Indian's words or statements. Suicide could mean something entirely different than what we consider "suicide" to be just like Wooden Leg's name. Did he have a wooden leg or was he capable of walking long distances without getting tired . . . thus he must have legs made out of wood.

or

Custer's soldiers fought as if they were drunk. Were they really drunk or did they fight so poorly?

Young warriors were willing to fight to the death, not to throw their lives away but for a number of reasons: defense of the woman and children or to gain honors.

Just like the Japanese soldiers of WWII who fought to the death . . . not to commit suicide but to die with honor or not to embarrass their families by surrendering or giving up.

Interpretation of Indian accounts of the LBH and other events during that period can certainly cloud or confuse what actually happened. It would take a trained scholar or historian to figure out what they really meant and not take it so literally as we do.