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Post by jinlian on May 13, 2008 11:02:33 GMT -6
Amazing picture, Henri - never seen before. I'd say it was taken when American Horse was touring with Cody (1886-7). Thanks to a friend's courtesy, I've got another pic taken at the 1898 Trans-Mississippi in Omaha.  American Horse, marked n.1 , seats in the first row (first from left); fourth from left is Geronimo; wasn't able to identify the last Indian in the first row (in the book he's identified as "Two Moons, Cheyenne", but this identification somehow doesn't sound right to me - was he in Omaha actually?). Fourth and seventh in the standing row are Naiche and Josh (Apache). |
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Post by grahamew on May 14, 2008 6:28:23 GMT -6
Interesting. I think I've seen some of those men in Reply 87 in a photo in Viola's book on Indian delegations - although I'm pretty sure Geronimo and Buckskin Charlie were with them. I'll have to check, since it's not hand.
The photo in 88 is interesting too since there were several photographers (like Stotz) and working out of El Reno who took pictures largely of Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho.
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Post by Dietmar on May 14, 2008 13:06:24 GMT -6
Isn´t it Hollow Horn Bear in the group photo above? He was with American Horse in Washington.
I´ve seen another photo with him, AH, Geronimo, Buckskin Charlie and Quanah Parker.
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Post by Dietmar on May 14, 2008 13:11:08 GMT -6
Here it is:  left to right: Chief Mountain (Blackfeet), Buckskin Charlie (Ute), Geronimo (Apache), Quanah Parker (Comanche), Hollow Horn Bear (Brule), American Horse (Oglala) [I resized the photo so it wouldn't blow out the board. To see its original size, go to upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Six_tribal_leaders.png. -- Diane] |
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Post by grahamew on May 14, 2008 13:48:34 GMT -6
Well, I've checked the Viola book and the image isn't there...
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Post by jinlian on May 14, 2008 14:53:27 GMT -6
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Post by grahamew on May 23, 2008 8:29:32 GMT -6
I've looked at this photo again and again and now it's on the Cowans site with the following explanation: W.R. Cross Cabinet Card of Capt. Geo. Sword with Buffalo Bill's Indians, with Hot Springs, S.D. imprint, 1891. Vintage copy. Sword (Mila Hanska), seated center, was Captain of Indian Police on the Pine Ridge Reservation, S.D. The occasion for this sitting was the departure of Oglala Lakota performers with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, in May 1891, following the Ghost Dance uprising there five months earlier and the Wounded Knee massacre. Chief American Horse (Tasunka Wasicu), son-in-law of Red Cloud, stands at the left. Painted Horse (Tasunka Wase) is seated at left. The man seated at right holds in his left hand the otter-wrapped short staff of the Omaha Warrior Society.  Although the dates should match and don't, this would certainly fit with the following JE Meddaugh photo, dated 1889, which I asked about elsewhere, because some of the men are in both photos wearing the same clothing (though I don't see Red Cloud and I'm not aware of him travelling with Cody's show):  Buffalo Bill's Outfit---1889 is inscribed in the negative at bottom, and also in ink, verso. Sixteen Oglala Lakota men and two white men pose for Meddaugh's camera, probably in April 1889. The elderly chief Red Cloud is standing seventh from left, with two eagle feathers in his hair and wearing snow goggles. His son-in-law American Horse kneels to the left, wearing an eagle feather headdress. 1889 is the only year that Red Cloud toured with the Buffalo Bill Show. American Horse, his wife and sons traveled with William F. Cody several times. The Lakota man in uniform at far right is George Sword, Captain of the Pine Ridge Agency Police. The man beside him wearing an eagle feather headdress is Painted Horse. |
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Post by jinlian on May 23, 2008 11:19:17 GMT -6
Hi Grahame,
about the first picture: the man identified as American Horse looks definitely too young to be him (to see how AH looked like in 1891, just look at the famous Grabill picture in which he shakes hands with Red Cloud, or at the Washington delegation picture) I don't know if any of his sons toured with Cody in that same year - Samuel and Charlie, whose pictures Dietmar has posted in the previous pages, were with Cody in 1900. Thomas and Robert had been involved in the Wounded Knee aftermath (Thomas acted as interpreter with the "hostiles", while Robert went to Washington with the Oglala-Brulé delegation together with his father).
About the second picture: Red Cloud never toured with the Wild West, even if Buffalo Bill invited him to join the show several times, offering him 120$/month (reported by Frank Goodyear in his Photographs of a Lakota Chief ) but Red Cloud declined the invitation. The pictures taken by Barry in 1897 at the Madison Square Garden, portraing Red Cloud and American Horse with Cody and other performers were made just for advertising, but Red Cloud never appeared in any of the WW performances. I remember, his son Jack joined the show for a few months sometime in the 1880s, though.
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Post by grahamew on May 24, 2008 3:12:52 GMT -6
I'm not convinced it's him either. Until this identification, I had never recognised AH in the first picture before, but it's not a great photo and the man does bear some resemblance. I suspect the date ties in with the latter picture rather than 1891. I've just looked at the other copies I have of this photo and they're even less clear. As I said, I never would've even suspected the man of being AH had I not seen this identification along with this particular version of the print. It is, however, Painted Horse and Sword.
I'm absolutely with you on Red Cloud and I think we've had this discussion before. Goodyear's book's great isn't it? Unfortunately, the picture's too small to check if it is him and I suspect someone's jumped to conclusions seeing him with a group that certainly includes men who toured with Cody.
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Post by jinlian on May 24, 2008 3:30:57 GMT -6
It may have been also a way to raise the price of the picture - I mean,throwing a famous name as Red Cloud (and the image's quality preventing any disproof; I tried Reshade and Magnifying Glass but neither does things better).
Yes, Goodyear is a great book and a great reference - I wish there were "thumbnails" of the pictures he didnt't include, though...
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Post by grahamew on May 24, 2008 4:36:52 GMT -6
It may well be RC; there are no claims that the photo was taken on tour - Meddaugh's photos were taken on Pine Ridge. Maybe he was there as a political or diplomatic guest. Maybe it's not him...
The man kneeling in the bonnet does seem to be the same man identified as AH in the other photo in terms of the way his bonnet is decorated and his necklace, but as you say, at this quality, who can really tell?!
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Post by jinlian on May 24, 2008 17:29:26 GMT -6
Speaking of American Horse's distinctive features, Diane's mentioning a "lazy eye" in the Red Wing thread has made me think of a particular I've always wondered about, but, don't know why, I've never mentioned in this discussion. In all of American Horse's portraits is quite evident that one of his eyes looks definitely smaller and somewhat less "lively" than the other one.   I wondered if this was just a peculiar reaction to the camera (I strongly doubt it, however) or some kind of pathology (a little strabismus, maybe?) .I've no medical background to define it, anyway. |
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Post by jinlian on Jun 12, 2008 11:49:22 GMT -6
Found another version of the photograph showing the Wild West cast during the Staten Island tour (1886) I've posted on pag.4 of this thread:  American Horse is standing at the far left |
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Post by jinlian on Jun 12, 2008 11:51:29 GMT -6
Still from the image above- a close-up of American Horse  |
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Post by crzhrs on Jun 12, 2008 12:13:48 GMT -6
Re: Wild West photo taken at Staten Island:
I noticed in the front row, third from left, sitting next to a female is a young child. The child appears much lighter skinned. Could it be a white child or possibly a child of mixed blood?
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