Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 25, 2006 14:33:11 GMT -5
. . . but the Memorial appellation eludes me.
Unfortunately, there are a number of mistakes on the Indian Memorial. Some of the men are listed by a couple Anglo interpretations of their names, resulting in duplications of warriors. I don't remember seeing the Minikon-konjou reference, but it must be a derivation of Minneconjou.
So the 55 dead Lakota/Cheyenne that I counted on the plaques is wrong? Then that reduces the number to even lower.
Still . . . who come up with the dead Indians? Did they go to descendants and ask? There has been a list of Indians killed published many times but the plaques have new names. They had to come from somewhere.
I guess one would have to go directly to any descendants and see if they are willing to talk about the battle and/or relatives who participated. As mentioned many times the elderly still feel they may be "punished" if they say things that would incriminate their ancestors and even them.
Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 26, 2006 11:03:57 GMT -5
Sorry Messageboarders, in my original query of Aug 25 I spelt the Memorial description of Crazy Horse incorrectly. Having now developed my photos I see that the appellation is "Minnikohoju". Thanks Grahamew for the language thread connection. I had rather thought that it was a reference to his maternal lineage, but the spelling and the fact that no other Lakota is similarly described made it unsound to make that assumption
O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us, To see oursels as others see us, It wad frae mony a blunder free us, And foolish notion
AMOS AND JULIA IRON CEDAR CLOWN from notes of Raymond Clown
Amos Clown, Cega/Paul Red Bird and Grows in a Day/Lucy (Mrs. Poor Buffalo) were the children of Fights the Thunder/Mi Ye Yi Lo (1828-1916) and Pazala/Thin Out/Rail/ Rotation. Amos Clown was born around 1864 in Montana. He was 12 and took part in Custer's battle. His brother, Paul Red Bird, is 15 years at that time. Both have seen lots of action. They tell lots of eyewitness stories. It lasted about 30 minutes, they said.
Iron Cedar/Julia Clown was born at Powder River, Montana around 1864. Her parents are Women's Breast/Corn and Red Leg (d. 1905). She has three brothers: Chief Crazy Horse (half-brother, b. 1850); Peter Wolf and Leo Combing. Women's Breast/Corn was also the father of Iron Between Horn (f) and Bull Head (m). Julia's father died or was killed in battle in 1874 when she was 8. At age 10, she was not at the Custer battle as they moved out before the battle. Amos Clown and Julia Iron Cedar were married in 1884 by a Congregational minister.
Nine children were born to this union: Moses Clown/Running Eagle was born in 1891. He served in World War I and was killed in Germany in 1918. Joseph/Peter Clown (1894-1963) married Emiline Did Not Go Home and they lived north of the Moreau River, across from Amos Clown's. Nellie/Mollie Clown (1896/7-1930) married Samuel Butcher. James Clown (1901-1969) married Mary Red Bear and later married Anna Red Bird. Lillie Elizabeth Clown lived from 1903 until 1917. Her sister, Lilie Clown (1903-1942) married James Makes Trouble. Louise Clown, born in 1905, married Henry Red Bear. They now live in Dupree. Edward Clown, born in 1908, married Amy Talks. They raised their children west of Iron Lightning, and now live in Dupree. Raymond Clown (1914-1981) married Sarah Marrowbone and raised six children in Thunder Butte. Julia and Amos Clown are buried 3 miles east of Thunder Butte Community at the Clown Family Cemetery. She died in 1936 and Amos died in 1943.
Thank you for the contribution. May I ask where you obtained notes from Raymond Clown?
A couple of questions come to mind:
1. You have Julia Iron Cedar's father listed as Woman's Breast/Corn. You then say that Julia' father, presumably referring to Woman's Breast, was killed in battle in 1874.
I have never seen a reference to Woman's Breast also being known as Corn. In an interview with Leo Combing, Julia's brother, (posted above by Kingsley), you can see that Corn was the father of Red Legs, Womans Breast's wife. I think there might be confusion in Raymond's notes. Unless we are talking about two different individuals, Woman's Breast survived into the early reservation period. We have numerous census records that show he, his wife Red Legs and his daughter Julia. Woman's Breast died in 1900 (not 1874).
2. Also, I think there is confusion about the relationship of Iron Between Horn and Bull Head. According to the Leo Combing interview, they were both siblings of Red Legs, the wife -- not the children of Woman's Breast and Red Legs.
3. According to the Clown family, Julia's siblings (children of Woman's Breast and Red Legs) included:
Shell Blanket (c1848-1894)
Leo Combing (c1851-1932)
James Bear Pipe (c1854-1892)
Peter Wolf (c1858-1918)
Comes Home Last (b. c1864)
Sacred Girl, infant (b. c1868)
The children of Julia and Amos Clown that you listed are what I have also.
4. There appears to be some confusion currently among the Clown family about the precise relationship to the Crazy Horse family (as Kingsley notes above). One part of the family claims that Crazy Horse the father (or Worm) was the same person as Woman's Breast, just different names for the same individual. However, agency census records suggest this is in error. In the fall of 1881, a census was conducted at both Standing Rock and at Rosebud at about the same time. Woman's Breast appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census; Crazy Horse (the father) appears in the 1881 Rosebud Agency census. They therefore cannot be the same person.
As Kingsley has noted, the Clown family are probably related to the Crazy Horse family through marriage.
Agnes, I am especially interested in knowing the source for stating that the Fights Thunder family was at the LBH and that Woman's Breast was not present. Thanks!
Last Edit: Sept 29, 2006 23:12:11 GMT -5 by ephriam
I invite people to get the information directly from the family of Crazy Horse. The DVD that they have "published" is quite explicit, and contradicts some of the info provided in the book of Mr Bray. See www.reelcontact.com
Thank you for the information, Catherine. Sounds interesting.
BUT: This DVD might be good, to me the text in the advertising sounds a bit too sensational. I remain sceptical, when someone wants to tell me he got the TRUE STORY. The "authorized biography of Crazy Horse and his family"?? By Crazy Horse himself??? By his whole family? And who are his "brothers and sisters"?
I watched the DVD and learnt a lot of interesting things. This is his family speaking, and you might take into consideration that this is one of the first time that something is produced by his relatives, and not by white people (with no offense). For this reason I believe it is good to make the effort to watch it. It is entitled the "authorized biography" for maybe one reason. Don't you think that it is a bit frustrating for a family to see foreigners write stuff about your ancestor and make money with it without asking you? Dietmar, watch the DVD and you will see who is speaking. Why would you accept the work of Mr Kingsley Bray with no criticism and reject the oral history of the family of Crazy Horse? Because he has a PhD and not the descendants of Crazy Horse? For me oral history is key. And what has been transmitted from generations to generations should not be discarded. If you do so, you miss something crucial about Lakota culture.
first I want to thank you for joining the board and contribute new information about Crazy Horse. I didn´t want to be unfriendly in any way.
Although it is not my part to defend the work of Kingsley Bray, I must say that as far as I know he wrote much of his book from interviews and oral history he collected on Cheyenne River and other reservations. So I don´t think it is fair to say he rejected the oral history of the Crazy Horse family. But if this DVD provides new information by descendants we don´t have heard, then great! I don´t have anything against it. It was just the way it was presented, that made me sceptical.