Crazy Horse Genealogy

[mort aux vaches]

Frankly if I'm interested in reading a historical book about Napoleon I would have higher hopes for a book written by a historian than one written by Louis' great-great grandchildren. Not to comment on the DVD which might well be worthwhile but you seem to have an unnecessary antagonistic view on this.

[catherine]

Bonjour mort aux vaches!
Below is a message from someone from the CR reservation who knows how the book has been written... I still believe that oral history is essential when you deal with Lakota history.
I have an antagonistic view on this when Europeans or White Americans tell the story of the Lakota people in a twisted way, or when they ignore true people...just to make money...And this is the problem, it is all about making money on the back of Lakotas... Don't you think that we have stolen enough things from Natives? Stealing their history to make money or to gain a fame, that is enough.
Just think about it: if someone would like to make a book on your great grand-mother, and would discard or twist what you have told her, how would you feel?

***********************************************************************
the oral history he got he twisted and negated, and that one in the family was honored, but the information she gave was not recorded accuretly because it didn't fit in to the game plan.
Brey is a fraud, and only interested in saving face and his pocket book. he had the oportunity to speak with us in 2002. i had phoned the Nebraska Historical Society that was to sponsor him in a symposium, and both shined us on, in other words, ignored us. thru the courts, it has been proven who the family is, and some on his geneology have been ordered to cease and desist their claims, because they are simply false.
tell that board, they just prove to the world their ignorance and ethnocentrism as a white man with a degree is the only one who can tell the truth, which it is not. and it also proves the europeans penchant for trusting writen word, which for American Indians has proven time and time again to be one big lie.
he rushed to get that book out before the CD, out of fear he would loose dollars. now he will be proven a fool that he is.
you can cut and paste this on that board if you desire.

[crzhrs]

I always thought CH only had one sibling, a brother, Little Hawk, who was killed in the early 1870s(?)

Who are the "brothers & sisters" spoken of?

Since CH's only child died there are no direct descendants. There are obviously many relatives, uncles, aunts, cousins, in-laws, etc. Are these the ones that passed down the info to today's descendants?

I agree the description of the DVD was "sensationalist" . . . maybe a way to sell the DVD. I'm tempted to buy it . . . the price is good. How's the picture/voice quality?

[markland]

catherine said:

Bonjour mort aux vaches!
Below is a message from someone from the CR reservation who knows how the book has been written... I still believe that oral history is essential when you deal with Lakota history.
I have an antagonistic view on this when Europeans or White Americans tell the story of the Lakota people in a twisted way, or when they ignore true people...just to make money...And this is the problem, it is all about making money on the back of Lakotas... Don't you think that we have stolen enough things from Natives? Stealing their history to make money or to gain a fame, that is enough.
Just think about it: if someone would like to make a book on your great grand-mother, and would discard or twist what you have told her, how would you feel?

***********************************************************************
the oral history he got he twisted and negated, and that one in the family was honored, but the information she gave was not recorded accuretly because it didn't fit in to the game plan.
Brey is a fraud, and only interested in saving face and his pocket book. he had the oportunity to speak with us in 2002. i had phoned the Nebraska Historical Society that was to sponsor him in a symposium, and both shined us on, in other words, ignored us. thru the courts, it has been proven who the family is, and some on his geneology have been ordered to cease and desist their claims, because they are simply false.
tell that board, they just prove to the world their ignorance and ethnocentrism as a white man with a degree is the only one who can tell the truth, which it is not. and it also proves the europeans penchant for trusting writen word, which for American Indians has proven time and time again to be one big lie.
he rushed to get that book out before the CD, out of fear he would loose dollars. now he will be proven a fool that he is.
you can cut and paste this on that board if you desire.

What a load of bull hockey! While I do not know K. B. personally, I do respect his values as a researcher. The problem is that the substantiation of "oral history" is vague, especially when dealing with someone of Crazy Horse's stature. Personally, I will read K. B.'s book with the assurance that he attempted to be as factual and fair as possible.

As far as making money; well, let me add this caveat, there are few writers of pure history making enough money to do more than pay for expenses to cover the research involved. Since there are several authors on this board, I will let them put forth any comment. K. B.'s book, while interesting and relevant, is not on the NY Times's bestseller list you know. Perhaps if he had written a fictional book about CH's purported love affair with what's her face it would sell better. Unfortunately for K. B.'s bank account, but fortunately for us, he decided to take the high road and write about documented history.

Being a son of the South and an amateur genealogist, I have experience with tales delivered orally. Usually they are close to being accurate but there are always mistakes. Perhaps not critical but mistakes that in the long run of a person's life that could prove crippling for honest history. For instance, family history indicates we are the descendents of John Hardison. However, there is nothing to substantiate that view. John is a likely candidate but however, there are six other brothers who are possibles. Fortunately, I leave that aspect of the family history to the sister, who at last contact with was thinking about hair replacement therapy due to trying to figure it out.

Be good and don't believe everything you hear,

Billy

[mort aux vaches]

To Catherine: In fact nor have I (yet) read the book or seen the DVD so I wont comment on what someone has chosen to put there and what someone has chosen to not put there. Just be careful to not make ad hominem arguments.

Perhaps I'm terribly naïve but I'm hard pressed to think there's
too much money to cash in on a book of this subject either. As well the bio was postponed several times by the publisher if memory serves me correct.
Do you feel publishers like the University of Oklahoma Press should cease releasing books that focus on these subjects? Haven't in fact certain books up through the years helped the casual reader to better understand what went down on the plains in the 19th century. How do you feel about history books about the holocaust not written by jews if I may ask? Should topics like the Iraqi-war only be written about by Iraqis, and in that case by Kurds, Sunni or Shi'ites? Your argument seems unsubstantiated.

There are, I'm sure, hundreds of biographies on Lincoln. Do you think his direct descendants have too much say in what get's written in them? The man in question on this thread is a very important historical figure, and a part of a collective history not anyones private property.
History will never be a canon where everyone is agreeing 100%, everyone has their own version of it, one which they may have adopted or made from a conglomerate of different soucres.

The understanding of a certain epoch comes from the present as well as the past, there's a big place for hermeneutics in history. I seem to have no problem with having to sift through various
versions and to make up my own mind on historical subjects.

And for the record: I have not stolen anything from anyone, look after your own ethics.

[clw]

I'm new here and I don't want to appear presumptive, but......I have read Mr. Bray's book. As a political history of the Lakota it is an interesting read. As a biography of Ta'sunke Witco, it leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, I find it incredibly arrogant for an Englishman to spin an imagined tale of what his Hanbleceya might have been like.

The DVD deserves far more respect than it has been shown here. Simply and beautifully edited, the family tells their stories of their grandmothers and grandfathers as they have been passed down through the generations. They aren't going to get rich from this, it's not some slick fancy production -- just real people talking about things as they know them to be. To reject their oral history because it doesn't dovetail with white research is simply a repetition of the same old hubris. Without a written language, oral history was much more carefully preserved than you might think. Much different than Napoleon's grandchildren or tales of the old South. Oral history was their only way of preserving their past and they approached it with great integrity.

If you buy the DVD, I think you will find it very special. The geneology is very clear and carefully documented. The ways of the Lakota and the people we have heard about in the 'text books' just come to life. By far the best treatment of the subject matter I've found yet. Please don't dismiss it because there aren't any PhD's connected to it or you will miss the forest for the trees.

[harpskiddie]

clw:

Amen, brother.

Gordie

[jjm]

I've read Bray's book and I like it, but it occasionally lapses into Sandozims. He's clearly done a lot of research, including the consultation of oral historians among the Lakota, so how come he didn't have the opportunity of meeting those descendants of the Crazy Horse family who have taken part in the interviews for the DVD? You shouldn't knock him for being an Englishman; the book is a hell of a lot better than Sandoz' or Ambrose's or Sajna's. The best book by a mile on Tecumseh is by an Englishman, John Sugden. Also, I don't think Bray's got a PhD and I doubt he makes much moulah out of this.

I assume his version of the hanbleceya is based on good oral source material...

[markland]

CLW, to address a few points with what I hope intend is as respect.

clw said:

I'm new here and I don't want to appear presumptive, but......I have read Mr. Bray's book. As a political history of the Lakota it is an interesting read. As a biography of Ta'sunke Witco, it leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, I find it incredibly arrogant for an Englishman to spin an imagined tale of what his Hanbleceya might have been like.

Fair review with which I have no problems with.

The DVD deserves far more respect than it has been shown here. Simply and beautifully edited, the family tells their stories of their grandmothers and grandfathers as they have been passed down through the generations. They aren't going to get rich from this, it's not some slick fancy production -- just real people talking about things as they know them to be. To reject their oral history because it doesn't dovetail with white research is simply a repetition of the same old hubris. Without a written language, oral history was much more carefully preserved than you might think. Much different than Napoleon's grandchildren or tales of the old South. Oral history was their only way of preserving their past and they approached it with great integrity.

If I recall correctly, no one is dismissing the DVD. I agree that oral history is a valuable source for historians but as I said earlier, I do not believe that you can expect 100% accuracy. Likely just a matter of opinion which we can argue about until the cows come home and still not reach a harmonious agreement on.

If you buy the DVD, I think you will find it very special. The geneology is very clear and carefully documented. The ways of the Lakota and the people we have heard about in the 'text books' just come to life. By far the best treatment of the subject matter I've found yet. Please don't dismiss it because there aren't any PhD's connected to it or you will miss the forest for the trees.

Re the DVD: IBID

The friction occurred when Catherine started the diatribe that the "descendents" of CH were neglected and ignored. They call K. B. "a fraud" and imply that they were ignored due to rascism. There are only so many ways that you can dress up the phrase "ethnocentrism as a white man" without implying rascism and despite many mental gymnastics on my part, I was unable to come up with anything with merit.

Personally, up until the moment I read the extract Catherine posted from the communication of the "descendents" I would have been willing to buy the DVD. Lord knows I buy enough already about the Indian War era so that should not have been a terrible hit. However, that attack posting sours me on the entire project no matter how well produced and worthy it may be.

Best of wishes and welcome aboard, we look forward to your opinions!

Billy

[clw]

Hi Billy, thanks for the welcome! And the vote of support, Gordie. But it's 'sister'.

I don't think we are that far apart on this. And in hindsight, I could have arrived with more tact. The 'Englishman' crack was a cheap shot. His book is very scholarly, shows a great deal of research and is big enough to throw at a burglar. ....occasionally lapses into Sandozims.... So well put. But I honestly enjoyed it.

Fact is, I had just seen the DVD for the first time when I found this discussion, and I was still feeling it's impact pretty strongly. It does that to you.

Sioux genealogy is a maze. We all know that, just reread this discussion. Validating their lineage is like trying to nail jello to a tree. I spend a lot of time on Cheyenne River. What Mr. Bray discredits is very sacred to them. I think you'll understand if you see the DVD.

My recommendation? Buy both!

[jjm]

"What Mr. Bray discredits is very sacred to them."

I'm not wishing to be conforntational, but I'm curious about this. What did he discredit? Did he ignore the opinions of some of the people on Cheyenne River?

[Tricia]

Billy--

I've got to step in here with a truism, which I believe pertains to anyone who has tried to finish that book, that short story, that history. If writers--even those who take the "low road" and write fiction--are in it to make money, they've just picked the wrong profession. I heard a staggering statistic last month: out of the 50,000 titles published in the United States last year, less than 10 or so were for those theoretical "big bucks."

You write whatever you write because you love the subject and have a story to tell--be it fiction or non-fiction. Financial reward is nice, but the reality is, unless you're John Grisham, you'll be working that day job until retirement.

My husband is receiving the Bray biography for Christmas. I'm looking forward to enjoying the narrative ... when he's done with it! I met some of Crazy Horse's relatives during my first visit at LBH; quite, quite interesting.

[harpskiddie]

clw:

Welcome, little sister [I'd guess that you are both younger, more agile and smaller than I, but probably not as pretty - no sexism intended], I hope that we get to hear more from you, and not just on the topic of the Lakota. Let's hear any stories you've picked up regarding the battle itself, even if they may seem outlandish. I, for one, am interested in oral histories of events.

Leyton:

You got that right. Like actors, singers and musicians, the percentage of writers who can actually forge a living out of their art is wonderfully small. My first two short stories cleared me 250 smackers [admittedly it was some years ago, as you might have guessed from the 'smackers'], which worked out to about 30 bucks a month. Needless to say, I turned my hand to other pursuits when it came to earning a living. When [if] I finish my tome on the fights on the Little Horn, I expect to realize about 25 cents per month of work - or perhaps even a negative return, which means I'd be farther ahead to stop now [is that an oxymoron?].

Gordie

[clw]

jjm - The pipe and bundle of Ta'sunke Witco have been passed down thru the Clown family of the Mnicojou band on CRR. Waglula spent his final years (1881 - 1900) there and changed his name twice to avoid government retaliation. One of the names he used was Woman's Breast. His youngest daughter, Iron Cedar (b. 1865, her mother was Red Leggins) or Julia Iron Cedar married Amos Clown. Afraid of Her was living with them when she died in 1889. So Julia Clown was the sister of Crazy Horse. Remember that the to the Lakota, half siblings were just plain siblings -- they were all the children of Waglula. Bray follows the reservation census records of the period and doesn't consider Julia Clown as Waglula's daughter -- says her father was Woman's Breast. Therein lies the conflict.

Efrim points out in a previous post that "In the fall of 1881, a census was conducted at both Standing Rock and at Rosebud at about the same time. Woman's Breast appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census; Crazy Horse (the father) appears in the 1881 Rosebud Agency census. They therefore cannot be the same person. " The family states that was the year he moved from Rosebud to CRR and changed his name so he could have easily appeared on both census. IMHO, those census records are far from dependable. These people were in fear of their lives and hid their identity with fictitious names and constant movement. Only in recent years did the family feel safe enough to begin the work of telling their history and documenting their lineage. They want it recorded for the children. The coincidence of Bray publishing at the same time and refuting their claim has been painful and frustrating. These are good and honest people who I'm proud to call my friends.

Gordie, there is a second DVD coming out Part 2 - Defending the Homeland. It will have the battle stories and I can't wait!! I've heard some of the stories, but I'll let the People tell them. As it should be. I know they have been working with the NPS regarding changing the placement of the different camps and archeology appears to be backing them up. But I don't know all the details. Should be extremely interesting.

[jjm]

Thanks :-)