Crazy Horse Genealogy

[clw]

Horse, I just checked in Bray's book. Crazy Horse came in on May 7 and Clark signed him as a scout on May 12, sure enough. He was top sergeant of newly formed E Co -- Little Big Man, Little Hawk, and No Water (!) as sergeants reporting to him. They were issued Sharps and Remmington revolvers, with ammo.

[brock]

Dietmar,
They recovered Waglula's pipe. True Clown had given it to Fools Crow and the family visited his son. Fools Crow's son gave it back (Fools Crow was deceased by this time). This is the pipe they smudge every three months on the solstice. It has a very long stem (about from my finger tips to my shoulder...I'm 5' 11" to give perspective) and has an inch wide metal band wrapped all the way up the stem in a candy cane like fashion. They allowed me the privilege of smoking it...they held it while I smoked.

Henri,

As far as the document that you dug up...I believe this was seen by Crazy Horse as a vehicle that would allow him to possess guns...nothing more. He never performed the duties. When he was actually called upon as a scout to help track down Chief Joseph, he was rather reluctant and only agreed under pressure and even then that was translated wrong.

[bc]

Hi, I've been following this thread and the American Horse thread and find them very interesting. I am really learning a lot here and appreciate what you are doing.

However, when you bring up all the Indian names, I have to ask this question.

Who was the person or who were the persons who translated all of these Indian names into English and were they sober when they did it? Also were any or many of these translations very accurate? Thanks

[harpskiddie]

bc:

From my limited knowledge, I would say that the names are more or less LITERAL TRANSLATIONS of the Lakota [or other language] but that many nuances are missed in that type of translation. As well, most names captured a wider image than the literal translation. As an example the Lakota for Sitting Bull does translate to Sitting Bull, or perhaps more properly to Buffalo Bull Sitting Down, but at least one writer expands the IDEA of the name to mean A Buffalo Bull Resides Among Us.

It's like a name translated as Soaring Hawk [or Hawk Soaring] painting a picture of that hawk soaring on thermals and attempting to convey that picture.

I used to have a Cheyenne name which translated as Walks In The Wind, and was meant to convey that the wind was always blowing, usually in my face, wherever I went - it followed me around. The people who gave me the name knew exactly what it meant, and so would any Cheyenne hearing it, but it would likely be translated by a non-Cheyenne as Wind Walker.

I wouldn't touch that "sober" question with a ten foot pole

Gordie
MC

[brock]

To add on to what Harpskiddie said, names like Roman Nose were actually mispelled and were really Roaming Nose (at least in Lakota...further I don't think the Lakota spent much time studying Julius Ceasar and the Roman Empire...there is no Lakota word for this kind of Roman) or in the case of one of the families I'm working with, the Clown family, their grandfather was actually known as Amos Heyoka (recorded on the ration records by this name in his early years) which is a sacred name. In the Lakota language and culture heyoka is known as a 'thunder dreamer' or one who gets his power from the 'wakinyans' (thunder beings). They also quite often did things the opposite of what was accepted. For instance when it was cold they complained of the heat and wore little to no clothes while in the heat they might bundle up. They made people laugh which was said to be a healing. Because there is no English word for 'heyoka', the translators did the best they could so since heyokas make people laugh they were translated as Clowns. Quite a difference in meanings when you reflect upon it. And to complicate things another translator could have just as easily named him Thunder Dreamer and nobody would have squawked. Without understanding the language and the nuances of the culture those attempting to sort out the genealogy are at the mercy of the early translators who were trying to translate the best they could. Some obviously better than others.

[crzhrs]

Is it any wonder then why when Indians talked about the Custer fight what was translated usually ended up being different than what the Indians actually meant?

[harpskiddie]

horse:

That's a pretty broad statement, since WE have no way of knowing what they actually said. The translations may be all wrong, all right, or [ more likely] something in between. The determining factor, as could reasonably be expected, is the true fluency of the translator in [ hopefully] both languages, but certainly in the NDN language he was translating. A slight difficulty in English would not necessarily skew the translation beyond understanding or usefulness, but the same level of difficulty in the Lakota or Cheyenne could result in huge credibility gaps.

Look to the translators. If none is named, take that into account when measuring the usefulness of the account. If he/she is named, see if you can find out something about him/her. You might be surprised at how many accounts can be discounted; but I'll warrant that you'd be astounded at how many there are that can't be.

One of the major problems with accounts attributed to NDN witnesses [or descendants thereof] is the "retranslation" done by whoever is using that evidence. You see a lot of that: "Running Wolf said that blah blah blah [as translated by John Elkhorn]; but it is clear that he meant that blah blah blah, which agrees entirely with [or leads to] my theory that blah blah blah....."

Don't be like Graham.

Gordie
MC

[brock]

To add on once more. I think over and above the translation is the culture. There are several words in Lakota that have no corressponding word in English just as there are English words that have no corresponding Lakota words that we take for granted (Lakota had no written language so for instance anything to do with printed words like books was not easily translated to the Lakota...I say this to help understanding from a non-Lakota perspective).

By the way, Crzhrs, I found the report on the white trader killed fighting with the Lakota...actually John Doerner found it for me. I think you had asked about it a long time ago. It is in the Walter Mason Camp interviews. It is specifically in Sgt M. H. Wilson's interview. This corresponds with the Clown family's oral history of the battle that one of the traders who sold the guns to the Lakota and Cheyenne was in camp the day of the battle. According to their oral history, he fought Reno's group from sharpshooter's ridge and was killed there. He was a friend of Two Bears who also was killed on Reno Hill. According to them, Two Bears is the one that brokered the deal and his death angered the white French trader who they say had red hair and a beard.

~Later

[crzhrs]

I believe He Dog mentioned the French man also in one of his interviews. Was the "white" man a Metis, a mix-blood from that "tribe"?

[crzhrs]

The translations of Indian accounts has been a much discussed topic on the forum.

Much of it probably was not "twisted" to confuse or fool the White Man but as brock stated the cultures were vastly different and for a translater trying to find English words to suit the Whites may have caused confusion as to the intent of the Indian. In addition Indian language is filled with metaphors (including Indian names) which can add even more confusion to non-Indians.

Some of the words we hear often are drunk & suicide which could mean that literally or figuratively.

[harpskiddie]

brock and crzhrs:

Somewhere on these boards, the name of this man is, I believe, given, along with the circumstances of his death and his burial. I would post this information, except that I might be wrong about it already being "out there" and I would not feel comfortable divulging it, if it isn't, since I do not consider it my information to share.

brock probably has the same story, from the same source, and is a bit circumspect about throwing it out there, and likely for the same reasons that I am. There are, from my viewpoint, still a few details to be cleared up, anyway.

Gordie
MC

[BrokenSword]

I agree with brock and crzhrs-

The task of translation VERY often requires some knowledge of the culture and customs by the translator. Some concepts exist in one culture and not in another, obviously.

In the Vietnamese culture, for instance, it is considered 'impolite' to ask someone to repeat something or explain something you didn't understand the first time. So, they take a best guess and let it go at that. Likewise there is no word for 'no' in the entire language. That too is considered 'impolite' and can cause the person it is said to to 'lose face,' or feel himself insulted. So they have um-teen blue-million ways to say 'yes.' Again, it depends on just what they mean.

To compound the problem, it's a tonal language and the same word may have several entirely different meanings, depending on what you are trying to express and how the word is inflected. Many tones are subtle in difference and hard to catch even by native speakers. Frankly, when they REALLY want to understand each other, they often speak French, abandoning their own language completely. Go figure.

There are about half a dozen ways to say the color 'black', and again its depends on what you are describing. A black shirt and black paint are completely different things in their minds. Ask for a 'bucket of paint this color,' pointing to a black shirt, and heaven only knows what you'll find when you open the paint can at home. It was, after all, impolite to ask you what you meant when you asked for paint to begin with.

They aren't stupid people and don't say stupid things. It's usually the non-Vietnamese asking the question and who is ignorant to think he speaks the language after a six week crash course. But, the Vietnamese won't tell him that. They are too polite to tell him so.

M

[brock]

Harpskiddie and Crzhrs, yes they have told me his name and the circumstances of his death. But I must spell it phonetically as it was given to me orally with no corresponding written material...so please take the spelling with a grain of salt. Jeanne Deelay...he was supposedly French. He and his brother (who married a Lakota but whose name I don't have) operated a trading post up north in the mid-northern part of the Montana/North Dakota border area somewhere. Two Bears was a Dakota headman who had a small village in the northern camps. He and Deelay were friends. When it was learned that the soldiers were coming from the reports of those that had arrived from the agencies, the Lakota determined they needed additional guns. It was too early in the year to have a plethora of buffalo hides to trade. Many miners were killed in the preceeding two year period in the Black Hills and the gold that was in their possession was taken off their bodies and reburied by the Lakota (much of it at the direction of Crazy Horse) where it was deemed the miners would not refind it somewhere northwest of Deadwood. With the knowledge that the soldiers were approaching for what they believed was going to be a fight, desperate times seemed to call for desperate actions. They knew Deelay liked gold and it was remembered where this gold was buried. A party went back and dug it up and presented it to Deelay and his brother. Because it was more gold than the Deelay brothers had rifles and bullets, (and the brothers wanted it all) Jeanne came with the Lakota as personal insurance that the rest of the guns would be delivered. That's why he was at the battle. It is thought the other brother ended up in Canada, but that part is a little hazy. But he had a boatload of gold and somehow the name Deelay or similar spelling and his money should resurface in Canada if indeed he went there but I haven't had the time to research that fact. Also I can't say whether the surviving brother took his wife with him when he left or not. But this in essence is the story that was told to me for my doc. I wonder if there are any sales receipts in the possession of the Winchester rifle company in 1876 to somebody of this name...that might even be a better place to start...after all they got into Cheyenne and Lakota hands somehow from somebody. That's what I can relate for now. Whether this was posted previously, I don't know. And even if it was whether it matches, I don't know that either as it wouldn't have been my post.

[brock]

Brokensword,
Good analogy. The more people that understand that translation isn't just a word for word proposition the further we can advance our understanding. I spent a year in Nam. Didn't get into the culture quite as deeply as yourself. Wish I could have. You're lucky. I spent most of my time dodging bullets and once I zigged when I should have zagged. Ouch! (Actually it was a numbing feeling).

[BrokenSword]

Hey brock-

'...zigged when I should have zagged...'

Well, it happens. Thanks for being there Bro.

My experience was probably pretty much like yours from the sound of it. I didn't really get to immerse myself in the culture so much, but I did strike up a friendship with a young Vietnamese Marine.

He was a good hearted fellow and fairly fluent in English. We spent a number of occasions talking, about God, the war, his religion, mine, his people, my people and our two cultures.

M