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Post by Diane Merkel on May 12, 2007 22:32:47 GMT -6
Diane, I'd be happy to respond to you on the Hump thread...but I still get a message that I'm "not allowed to respond on 'that' thread". I'm not quite sure why...but I think it's at your end. But thank you for the kind words anyway. Brock, I can't imagine why you can't respond to the Hump thread; you have posted there before. I don't have a way to manage individual threads, so it's nothing I've done. Perhaps you were not logged in at the time you last tried to post. Has anyone else had such a problem? Diane
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Post by fsheridan on Nov 12, 2007 17:25:29 GMT -6
Just a quick question...I'm new to this and was wondering...the brother of Crazy Horse...That was called Little Hawk...who was killed...Was he half Cheyenne...and can any one tell me who his parents were...I think there is some connection to the Spotted Tail family...Were any of the siblings in the Spotted Tail family half Cheyenne....thank you in advance....
Frank Sheridan
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Post by lmiller202 on Dec 6, 2007 10:46:28 GMT -6
jjm - The pipe and bundle of Ta'sunke Witco have been passed down thru the Clown family of the Mnicojou band on CRR. Waglula spent his final years (1881 - 1900) there and changed his name twice to avoid government retaliation. One of the names he used was Woman's Breast. His youngest daughter, Iron Cedar (b. 1865, her mother was Red Leggins) or Julia Iron Cedar married Amos Clown. Afraid of Her was living with them when she died in 1889. So Julia Clown was the sister of Crazy Horse. Remember that the to the Lakota, half siblings were just plain siblings -- they were all the children of Waglula. Bray follows the reservation census records of the period and doesn't consider Julia Clown as Waglula's daughter -- says her father was Woman's Breast. Therein lies the conflict. Efrim points out in a previous post that "In the fall of 1881, a census was conducted at both Standing Rock and at Rosebud at about the same time. Woman's Breast appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census; Crazy Horse (the father) appears in the 1881 Rosebud Agency census. They therefore cannot be the same person. " The family states that was the year he moved from Rosebud to CRR and changed his name so he could have easily appeared on both census. IMHO, those census records are far from dependable. These people were in fear of their lives and hid their identity with fictitious names and constant movement. Only in recent years did the family feel safe enough to begin the work of telling their history and documenting their lineage. They want it recorded for the children. The coincidence of Bray publishing at the same time and refuting their claim has been painful and frustrating. These are good and honest people who I'm proud to call my friends. Gordie, there is a second DVD coming out Part 2 - Defending the Homeland. It will have the battle stories and I can't wait!! I've heard some of the stories, but I'll let the People tell them. As it should be. I know they have been working with the NPS regarding changing the placement of the different camps and archeology appears to be backing them up. But I don't know all the details. Should be extremely interesting.
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Post by lmiller202 on Dec 6, 2007 10:47:48 GMT -6
jjm - The pipe and bundle of Ta'sunke Witco have been passed down thru the Clown family of the Mnicojou band on CRR. Waglula spent his final years (1881 - 1900) there and changed his name twice to avoid government retaliation. One of the names he used was Woman's Breast. His youngest daughter, Iron Cedar (b. 1865, her mother was Red Leggins) or Julia Iron Cedar married Amos Clown. Afraid of Her was living with them when she died in 1889. So Julia Clown was the sister of Crazy Horse. Remember that the to the Lakota, half siblings were just plain siblings -- they were all the children of Waglula. Bray follows the reservation census records of the period and doesn't consider Julia Clown as Waglula's daughter -- says her father was Woman's Breast. Therein lies the conflict. Efrim points out in a previous post that "In the fall of 1881, a census was conducted at both Standing Rock and at Rosebud at about the same time. Woman's Breast appears in the 1881 Standing Rock Agency census; Crazy Horse (the father) appears in the 1881 Rosebud Agency census. They therefore cannot be the same person. " The family states that was the year he moved from Rosebud to CRR and changed his name so he could have easily appeared on both census. IMHO, those census records are far from dependable. These people were in fear of their lives and hid their identity with fictitious names and constant movement. Only in recent years did the family feel safe enough to begin the work of telling their history and documenting their lineage. They want it recorded for the children. The coincidence of Bray publishing at the same time and refuting their claim has been painful and frustrating. These are good and honest people who I'm proud to call my friends. Gordie, there is a second DVD coming out Part 2 - Defending the Homeland. It will have the battle stories and I can't wait!! I've heard some of the stories, but I'll let the People tell them. As it should be. I know they have been working with the NPS regarding changing the placement of the different camps and archeology appears to be backing them up. But I don't know all the details. Should be extremely interesting.
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Post by lmiller202 on Dec 6, 2007 10:48:31 GMT -6
Not to be disrespectful but, I doubt that he changed his name twice to avoid government retaliation-EVERYONE knew who he was and where he lived
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Post by clw on Dec 6, 2007 11:02:35 GMT -6
Well that's quite a sweeping statement. Could you elaborate?
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Post by lmiller202 on Dec 6, 2007 12:24:52 GMT -6
I tend to stay clear of family oral history-I have been researching Native American’s for 12 years, including Cherokee, Choctaw, Cheyenne and Lakota ..my daughter-in-law is the 3rd great grand niece of Crazy Horse, oral history says, which would mean a half brother or sister was her ggg-grandfather or mother ...since Crazy Horse had no sisters named White Cow, that leaves a half brother named Red Bear..this could be an unknown child of either Worm or Rattle Blanket Woman..oral history has it the parents of Red Bear (Oglala-Kiyuksas?) was Savage Bear & Wehany so that leaves out Worm? Anyone know who Wehany is?
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Post by ephriam on Dec 6, 2007 14:57:55 GMT -6
I would agree that oral history can sometimes have its challenges, but so does every type of historical source. Whether we are talking about a diary, map, photograph, later recollection, or oral history passed through several generations, each provides some information, leaves some information out, is told from the perspective of the person who recorded it, and often has aspects that are inaccurate or misinterpreted.
I would add that I think the issue here between the identity of Worm and Woman's Breast is not the census records (having worked with Lakota census records for many years, I can testify to Brock's comments about how many errors they can have).
Rather, the issue is that we have are several competing oral histories about the family history of Crazy Horse -- and specifically about Worm. I just returned from Pine Ridge over the holiday where I met with folks from several Oglala families. They have a strong and equally compelling oral history that differs from that of the Clown family descendants.
In the end, it will be the combination of ALL of these sources, the oral history together with the documents, that will probably give us our best opportunity to work out these kinds of details.
ephriam
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ladonna
Full Member
In spirit
Posts: 182
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Post by ladonna on Dec 6, 2007 18:52:48 GMT -6
ephriam I have to agree with you, after doing all the familky histories of my tribe, one family does not have all the information. We need to take small step in recording histories from all points of view. Oral, written with in the tribe and different tribes to get the full story.
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Post by apsalooka on Jan 22, 2008 13:56:54 GMT -6
I am re-reading the book, To Be An Indian: an Oral History, and on page 63 there is an interview with George Kills in Sight. He was at that time ( 1967 ) chairman of the tribal land enterprise. He recalls that Crazy Horse was sort of related to his grandmother on his fathers side...a cousin. His grandfather was Big Crow. Can any-one comfirm that he was/is related to Crazy Horse?? Henri
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 24, 2008 7:13:39 GMT -6
Hi Henri,
I think it was stated somewhere in this thread that Big Crow was rejected as a relative of Crazy Horse by the Family of Crazy Horse (Clown). But I don´t know the details.
Best wishes
Dietmar
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Post by brock on Jan 24, 2008 14:11:56 GMT -6
Howdy Dietmar and Henry,
Seth Big Crow (Great Grandson to Big Crow) started the Crazy Horse Defense Fund with True Clown. True Clown was the son of James Clown who married his first cousin...thus he was ostracized from the family. True Clown stole the family cedar chest containing all the old photos and three sacred pipes...one belonging to Wagula. True Clown was not a family member in good standing. Seth Big Crow's great grandfather married Good Looking Woman (Rattling Blanket's sister). Good Looking Woman left Big Crow when her sister hanged herself. (According to the Clown family she could not have children anyway and it was quite common to part ways if the wife could not bear children). She came there to raise Crazy Horse.
Seth Big Crow's claim is that Good Looking Woman had a child with Big Crow...the rest of the Clown family says no. (I find it hard to believe that a mother would abandon her only child to raise her younger sister's child...in this case Crazy Horse). She did not marry Waglula but lived as an in-law with him. Anyway True Clown died early in the Crazy Horse Defense Fund attempt and Seth Big Crow took it over. He won the case against Hormel Brewing and Coors the distributor. They garnered $150,000. During the recent court hearings on the true heirs this money was stolen out of the bank by Seth Big Crow and his attorney. The judge was anything but happy. Seth Big Crow died last year.
Probably more than you bargained for...but what the heck.
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 24, 2008 15:02:59 GMT -6
Hi brock,
thanks for the details...
I hope the family got the pipes and the photos back eventually... or are they lost?
Greetings from Germany
Dietmar
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Post by apsalooka on Jan 24, 2008 17:40:28 GMT -6
Found this "Enlistment Paper", somewere on the internet. As you can see, Crazy Horse is enlisted as scout in the year 1877. Henri
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 25, 2008 12:56:03 GMT -6
Is the date 12th of May?
Didn't CH come in late May? And would he have so quickly signed up as a scout so soon after coming in from doing everything he could to oppose the White Man?
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