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Post by Scout on Jan 28, 2008 20:57:09 GMT -6
" By the way, Crzhrs, I found the report on the white trader killed fighting with the Lakota...actually John Doerner found it for me. I think you had asked about it a long time ago. It is in the Walter Mason Camp interviews. It is specifically in Sgt M. H. Wilson's interview. This corresponds with the Clown family's oral history of the battle that one of the traders who sold the guns to the Lakota and Cheyenne was in camp the day of the battle. According to their oral history, he fought Reno's group from sharpshooter's ridge and was killed there. He was a friend of Two Bears who also was killed on Reno Hill. According to them, Two Bears is the one that brokered the deal and his death angered the white French trader who they say had red hair and a beard."
From the New York Herald, 8-1-76: "Allegations of a Guide's Treachery."
"There is quite a number of white men with the Indians, English having been spoken in their ranks plentifully during the engagements. One of the Indians that was shot by Reno’s men attracted peculiar attention, and upon going up to him he was found masked, and upon removing the mask the features of a white man were disclosed, with a long, gray, patriarchal beard. This individual was seen several times by Gibbon’s command, in charge of small parties of Indians, but they could never get close enough to him to make his acquaintance, so they took him to be an Indian sporting false whiskers for a blind. But when he was pointed out on the field, dead, they recognized him as the same individual. A bugler who was dishonorably in 1869, from the Second infantry, is said to be with them, and it is supposed that he is the one who blew the call on the trumpet."
Remember, I'm your source for all ridiculous stories...I've collected HUNDREDS.
Mick the scout
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Post by brock on Jan 28, 2008 21:06:18 GMT -6
Same back to you Bro (BrokenSword) and welcome home. I was in the Americal 196 infantry 2/1. It's where I first got introduced to a couple of Lakota. I didn't really appreciate it then and only knew one of them by 'Chief' and the other was Doc Whitebird. Later I read a book "The Dull Knives of Pine Ridge" and found out much to my surprise and excitement that 'Chief' was actually Guy Dull Knife Jr. I visited him for the first time in 2005 and he honored me with an eagle feather and he indeed was the 'Chief' that I had known in Nam. He asked about one of our buds that I had to zip up. Doc Francis Whitebird had set me up with my medical kit as I too was a medic. Seems that the two had been separated because they drank too much when they were together. Went and visited Guy again recently. Since the book came out, he has divorced his wife and married her sister. He said it caused some strained relations with his in-laws. Apparently when his wife's side of the family gets together there are four sisters and he likes to tell the other two sisters that he hasn't married, that they're next on his list.
...sorry Nam flashbacks can go in many directions...I'll try to be better disciplined, after all this is a Crazy Horse thread. ;-)
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Post by brock on Jan 28, 2008 22:20:36 GMT -6
Scout, I would agree that the Herald story is bogus and packed with tabloid journalism. If I read your implication correctly and you are saying that the M. H. Wilson interview with Camp is of the same ilk then I have to disagree. At least the sources are named in the Camp papers where the Herald is nothing more than allegations made by the proverbial 'they'. As far as the Clown family oral history, I am working backwards from it and finding the corresponding papers or matches with other oral histories, that will all take time (and my source, unlike the Herald is named there too). The Camp papers are just one small victory. It's not the only one...just the only one I've posted. As far as the rest of the story, it doesn't mean that there's nothing worth sharing presently.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 29, 2008 10:54:28 GMT -6
brock, horse et al:
Milden H. Wilson was a sergeant in Company I, 7th Infantry, a part of the Terry/Gibbon column. He received a the MOH in 1878 for actions at the Big Hole fight in 1877 against the Nez Perce. I have not yet seen the Camp interview, which is ostensibly in the Camp Collection at LBHNM. I doubt that it could have much in the way of details about Deeley, although it may contain a mention of his body being found. Without seeing the interview notes, it is simply speculation as to what he said; but it is fairly clear that the 7th Infantry guys were mainly in the valley, and perhaps helped out a bit on Custer field with the burials around SSL and Deep Ravine. Neither would place Wilson close to where Deely was supposedly "buried."
I had hoped to review the Camp Collection again this summer for new materials [additions are frequently made], but that will have to wait [for me, anyway]. Any serious researcher can gain access to the materials by prior arrangement with the NPS staff. John Doerner is, I believe, the Chief Historian at the LBHNM.
Gordie MC
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Post by brock on Jan 29, 2008 15:02:46 GMT -6
Here's the interview as sent by John Doerner. In addition a mile west of Curly's original cabin would place the scaffold just west along the western edge of the valley and benchland at Squaw Creek/Squaw Ravine.
"Roe (2nd Lt. Charles Frances Roe, F Company 2nd Cavalry) was with F Troop, 2nd Cavalry. Camped night of June 26 on bend of Little Bighorn where Crow Agency is now. On June 26 Gibbon's march was on the west side of the Little Bighorn, all the way from the Buttes east of Big Horn.....kept on west side all the way up. At the bend (Crow Agency) next morning [they] kept over to the foothills on the same side of the river. At the first coulee there were three or four big cottonwoods (about a mile west of Curley's ranch) [where they] found a white man with a long beard buried in a tree. Wilson helped take him down. He was dressed as an Indian and was evidently fighting with them and killed on Reno Hill [Sharp Shooter Ridge] where he had been seen by soldiers. Was shot in five or six places. Mr. Willie, operator at Deer Lodge, has the braclets [taken] off this man's hand." Interview with Sergeant M.H. Wilson, 7th Infantry [no date] Camp, Custer, And The Little Bighorn: A Collection of Walter Mason Camp's Research Papers on General George A. Custer's Last Fight"
I'd be curious to know if Mr Willie over at Deer Lodge has any surviving relatives.
~Later
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Post by Scout on Jan 29, 2008 15:30:38 GMT -6
Brock, no I don't believe it at all. I live by the research rule that if something sounds to fantastic and illogical to be true it probably ain't. Dr. Graham believed a man named Frank Hutson was in the Indian camp at the time of the battle. He wasn't. Remember, Camp got fed a lot of BS by a lot of people. Heck, I even found one such story where Jesse James was in the Indian camp and handed out Winchesters to the Indians. It was attributed to a Negro named Frank Curtis in El Paso, Colorado in 1959. Gotta love it.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 29, 2008 15:44:47 GMT -6
brock:
Thanks for the citation. It turns out that I already had it, but didn't know it. What you posted is a small excerpt of the total interview.
As opposed to Scout, I believe that Deely was there, but as my correspondent knows, there is some difficulty with the details of where and when he fought and died. I had always understood that he was placed on a scaffold "behind SSR" [which could mean almost anything], which is why the description given by Wilson did not make a deep impression on me. Quite frankly, although I know where I got the bulk of the information, I can't remember where I got the idea of his "burial" place. And maybe the long beard got me, too.
I've never seen, that I can recall, any mention by soldiers who were there of a man with a long beard fighting from SSR [which is a considerable distance from the Reno intrenchments].
Gordie MC
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Post by brock on Jan 29, 2008 16:01:10 GMT -6
Harpskiddie, What have you found that makes you say his beard was white? What John sent me doesn't mention the color.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 29, 2008 16:31:43 GMT -6
brock:
A slip of the tongue, I'm afraid, and I apologize. I've corrected the above post. As a matter of interest, the original notes do not mention Sharpshooters Ridge, just Reno Hill. Gordie MC
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Post by brock on Jan 29, 2008 18:11:40 GMT -6
Just a general question. In Montana at around the 1900s when someone was called an 'operator' did that normally mean he ran a mining operation? Anyone with Montana roots care to field that?
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Post by shan on Feb 2, 2008 10:13:09 GMT -6
Does anyone know if Crazy Horse had a brother that our lived him, and if so, has anyone ever heard if he was photographed or not?
I know that many years before he came to the attention of the whites, he had a brother that was killed by the Crows or Shoshones, a brother he was so fond of that he set out alone to avenge him, but I was wondering if there was yet another brother. Should there be an actual photograph of him, then we might some insight as to how Crazy Horse himself looked. Shan
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Post by Scout on Feb 2, 2008 15:13:09 GMT -6
I think that Deeley/dead man up the tree story was nothing more than an old wives tale. If such a body was found the chances are pretty good he was killed by the Indians who might have thought he led the troops there. In the long run there is no evidence that it happened. Strictly gossip. Good point on Crazy Horse shan, there would have been some resemblance I would guess.
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Post by brock on Feb 2, 2008 21:52:30 GMT -6
Shan, Yes there is a photo according to the Clown family of a half-brother, Wolf, that resides in one of the family descendants cedar chest. I have that photo and showed it briefly in one of the documentaries but I can't post it as it belongs to the family and is not in public domain. Also there is a a drawing in the book "Custer's Conqueror" by William Bourdeau that you could find in Beinecke's Rare Books and Manuscripts that was drawn from a description by Louis Boudreau and Julia Iron Cedar (Clown). Also once again in the docs there is a drawing by an unknown artist at the behest of Julia Iron Cedar that belongs again to the family that they say is accurate. Right now the only online would be at Beinecke (Yale University) site.
Scout, I think most everyone accepts the fact that you don't believe this story after stating so the first time on this thread. But if you really want to contribute in a constructive way then I think supplying hard evidence that it did NOT happen would be in order.
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Post by taylordlc on Nov 28, 2010 1:20:17 GMT -6
Hello, I'm from the Rosebud Sioux Tribe and my dad says that he is a direct descendant of Crazy Horse, and I was wondering if anybody has researched his descendants, and if so, have you ever heard the Surname "Long Crow"? I'm equally Oglala and Sicangu, but I'm enrolled in Rosebud, any information is welcome, thanks!
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Nov 28, 2010 10:50:57 GMT -6
Hello, I'm from the Rosebud Sioux Tribe and my dad says that he is a direct descendant of Crazy Horse, and I was wondering if anybody has researched his descendants, and if so, have you ever heard the Surname "Long Crow"? I'm equally Oglala and Sicangu, but I'm enrolled in Rosebud, any information is welcome, thanks! Welcome to these boards taylordic. I suggest that you log on to the www.american-tribes.com/ site and pose your question there as you will find a wealth of knowledge on it about Native American matters. Under the Teton/Lakota heading there are three threads concerning Crazy Horse. The first is Crazy Horse & Relatives, the second is Crazy Horse Living with the Sicangu and the third is Crazy Horse Living with the Minniconjou. I hope you find the information you are looking for. Kind regards. "Hunk" Papa (No, I am not a Native American!)
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