"Indians will fight . . ."

[crzhrs]

An interesting post from another forum:

All the earlier intelligence Terry, Sheridan etc. were getting was that Indians were leaving the agencies in large numbers "and will fight". Yet that expectation seems to change in the later stages of planning, or simply not to have registered with Custer . . .

[harpskiddie]

crzhrs:

It certainly didn't register with Terry, whose "plan" was to move his forces so as to preclude the ESCAPE of the Indians. Some of the intelligence did not reach Terry until after the battle, which is on Sheridan, but agents and scouts had been reporting as you have pointed out for months before.

Once you have a mindset, it's hard to get out of it, despite all evidence to the contrary, which is why "I can't believe you did that!" has become a common expression. I remember a highschool football game we played one year against the reigning champions, who had gone undefeated for two and a bit seasons. They thought, and probably rightly so, that they would steamroller right over us and all other opposition. They only hoped that we would actually show up.

One of our guys ran back the opening kickoff for a TD. They couldn't believe it. They fumbled on their second play from scrimmage and we recovered. They couldn't believe it. Our first play was a statue of liberty option pass that also produced a TD. They couldn't believe it. Neither could we really, but our blood was up and we eventually clobbered them by a big score. They couldn't believe it.

The army's mindset was exactly that - a set mind. Even had Terry received the intelligence in a timely fashion, it would not likely have altered his thinking one bit. Even Custer thought he might find 1500 warriors, and he didn't see that as a problem - he just hoped they would show up.

In retrospect, he should have punted.

Gordie

[crzhrs]

Yeah . . . mind set . . . the Indians will run . . . they will not stand and fight . . . at all costs, do not let the Indians escape.

At all costs . . . the Indians did escape . . . except they fought before they ran . . . or as some of the survivors stated . . . in a grand procession.

The military's phobia of Indians running leading to Custer's fall is just as much a factor as all the "decisions" based on that phobia.

[wild]

The military's phobia of Indians running leading to Custer's fall is just as much a factor as all the "decisions" based on that phobia.
Not a phobia more a characteristic of how the Indians could be expected to react.
Soldiers are surplus humans.Indian society being very basic did not have specialist fighters.An Indian warrior was far more important to his society than your soldier.Their tribal system could not sustain the rate of casualties the infinately more sophisticated white society could therefore they ran if confronted by a situation which did not give them very good odds.

[crzhrs]

Indians didn't always run . . . they attacked Fetterman, Hayfight & Wagon Box Fight, Beecher's Island, Adobe Walls, many hit-and-run attacks on small detachments, and Custer during the Yellowstone Campaign.

Custer was well aware of this. The one situation where Indians would more than likey run was if their village was threatened. That's why surprise attacks at dawn and during Winter was something the high command strong recommended.

Indians would make a stand if families were threatened . . . they were threatened at the LBH and warriors made a stand . . . and this was after intel reported that Indians were leaving the reservations and would fight.

[crzhrs]

In addition if one reads the many accounts of the lengths warriors went to for war honors one would think they didn't care whether they lived or died.

The "brave runs" along the lines of their opponents, including soldiers with carbines, the mad dash to capture horses and booty almost under the noses of enemies, the staking of sashes to the ground and fighting to the death, etc.

While the lives of their families was paramount and they would fight to the death for, while on raids or open battles they sometimes acted as if it was more important to show what they were made of than their safety.

[PhillyBlair]

I think a big factor in this is the "shock and awe" that Terry and Custer thought they would bring. The Indians would have never seen a force this size. It was logical to assume that they would be warned by scouts of massive armies coming in three directions. Naturally, they would flee. I believe Terry gave Custer his "freedom" because of this. He thought Custer might catch up to a fleeing village and drive them toward him.

So, even though the reports indicated they would fight, the planned "shock and awe" would change that. In reality, even Custer's three pronged attack produced the shock and awe response (for at least 5 minutes!). Check out the Indian accounts...."we thought there were thousands......we thought there were a million......"

Gordie, was your Statue of Liberty play as good as Boise State's?

[Dark Cloud]

Some of the Indians at LBH had been at Kildeer Mt. and they'd seen a far bigger force than this, with artillery, and it played out that they fought there as well. It remains a great example of what they could reasonably expect which the Army ignored utterly.

It's an issue of definition. When you use the same word for two utterly different animals, one timid and one blood thirsty, you can get hurt. A large village simply could not react as quick as a small one, plus nobody wants to run in front of different tribes, plus they clearly outnumbered the attackers so why not fight away from the camp while everyone gets organized in it? But the target at the Washita and at the LBH are both called villages, and everyone knows villages will pack up and run, right?

So why aren't they running........it's a village, right?

[harpskiddie]

Philly:

It wasn't so dramatic, but it was a thing of beauty, with defenders running all around and the receiver being in the clear by about 15 yards. Possessing little in the way of skill, we relied a great deal on subterfuge [although few of us knew that word].

Gordie

[AZ Ranger]

If they knew the Indians would fight they should have brought their sabres, unless the training was lacking sufficient to not warrant there use.

I am not sure that cavalry could handle anything but running. Suppose the Indians just stayed in the village and waited for Reno to charge in and as the horses pass an Indian jumps from concealment. Preferably on the left side of trooper since there is a blind spot at 7 o'clock which is hard to shoot at for a right handed shooter. Three Indians per trooper knocking the horse and trooper over.

We know the results of Indains using cover and concealment with overwhelming numbers.

I know Wild. the Indians didn't want the women and children hurt but the troopers could lob rounds in anyway and did.

AZ Ranger

[elisabeth]

The post crzhrs quotes also goes on to raise the Crows' advice to Custer: that now the command's been discovered, he'd better attack before the Indians attack him. Again, an expectation of fighting rather than fleeing.

I wonder, do we sometimes place too much reliance on the army's supposedly blinkered mindset?

[crzhrs]

Reno's orders: The village/Indians are running . . . bring them to battle.

Nothing about Indians are attacking us . . . again the military's mindset is Indians will always run in the face of a military attack . . .

I keep remembering that old saying: "Never assume anything!"

[PhillyBlair]

...and it's twin proverb: "When you assume, U make an ASS out of ME."

That's deep, eh?

[harpskiddie]

Elisabeth:

I don't know if we place too much importance on the Army mindset; but I think there is ample evidence throughout the Plains Wars that the Army did. There is no question, in my mind anyway, that this 'tunnel vision' had serious consequences in several engagements, and certainly heavily influenced both strategic and tactical planning.

Anyone would like to take his enemy by surprise, rather than when he is alerted [think 'sucker punch']; but the Army thought that surprise was essential to forcing a fight, which they of course thought they would always win. They never seemed to learn that you sometimes get what you wish for.

As to Indians actually attacking a strong force of troops, the troop commander's first thought probably was "They're running right into our hands!! Gotcha now!!"

Fred has pointed out on several threads, that Army thinking in terms of non-traditional warfare has only just begun to advance into the realm of reality. In the 19th century, they seemed to never be able to get a grip. I think a few commanders probably learned from the Custer Fight, but most likely thought it was an abberation[sp] that only 'proved the rule.'

Gordie

[crzhrs]

I think one has to look at the differences between conventional Western armies and indigenous "armies".

Most of the high command of Western armies felt indigenous foes were inferior, not just racially, but militarily. Most could not fathom that native people could defeat modern, disciplined, well-armed soldiers. Most of the time that was true . . . but how many times have we seen indigenous fighters routing and defeating western armies . . . not just in North America but throughout the world?

Overconfidence, arrogance, and racism has led to many defeats . . .