"Indians will fight . . ."

[crzhrs]

Americans at the time of Indian wars were forcing Indians to become Whites and sell off their treaty-bound land . . . or starve!

As for modern day Indians wanting to go back to the past . . . I don't know any personally, but the lives of many of them now are certainly not anything we as members of the US can be proud of. Given a choice they may prefer to go back to the "old ways" even with all the "discomforts"

In addition, once the generational break of the old to the "new" ways that took place when Indian children were kidnapped from parents to become whites the cultural link was destroyed. Not only were Indian children punished for being Indians but they were told it was "uncivilized" . . . "savage" . . . "primitive". After that was beaten into you very few of them wanted to be "Indian."

Yes we can romanticize what it must have been like to live the old ways of Native Americans . . . it was a lifestyle that would make any of us blanch at the things they had to go through . . . but it seems there was a closeness and bond that is lacking today in our modern-day society of "me first" and "I want it right now" mentality.

PS: What the heck does Haggis taste like?

[elisabeth]

Just a side note for anyone who's never tasted haggis: don't let yourself be put off by the above. It's delicious.

Now there's a thought: someone should start a chain of takeaway haggis-pattie-in-a-bun restaurants. They'd clean up!

[crzhrs]

Haggis-pattie-in-a-bun?

I remember my grandfather from the old country eating sheep brains and eye balls! GULP!

So . . . it doesn't matter where you come from . . . each culture has it's own thing and we should not be putting that down.

But eye balls?!?!?!?!?

[harpskiddie]

crzhrs:

There are still some Indians who live 'the old way' on the rez, but not part of it - in lodges and etc. There were some in Busby when I was there [although they are likely all dead by now] and there are some Cree and Ojibway on reserves in Alberta and Saskatchewan who still do live away from the reservation towns in lodges and try to emulate traditional life.

The big difference between now and then is that these adventurous souls can always resupply at the reservation stores, if things get tough out in the wilds or move in with relatives in town houses. Some of them also do use modern things, aside from rifles and ammo, like skidoos, battery-operated doodads like cell phones and GPS locators, compasses and even laptops.

Gordie

[Dark Cloud]

What they call 'haggis' today generally isn't. It's something designed to recall it for the modern taste.....and eyes, generally at some event to honor Robert Burns, who's to blame for its popularity. Here's why it is revolting, from Wikipedia:

Haggis is a traditional Scottish dish. Although there are many recipes, it is normally made with the following ingredients: sheep's 'pluck' (heart, liver and lungs), minced with onion, oatmeal, suet, spices, and salt, mixed with stock, and traditionally boiled in the animal's stomach for approximately an hour. It somewhat resembles stuffed intestines (pig intestines otherwise known as chitterlings), sausages and savoury puddings of which it is among the largest types. Most modern commercial haggis is prepared in a casing rather than an actual stomach. There are also meat-free recipes specifically for vegetarians which supposedly taste similar to the meat-based recipes.

Some Scots joke that the haggis is a small animal native to Scotland.

Haggis is traditionally served with "neeps and tatties" (Scots: turnip and potatoes), each of these being mashed, separately. (The "neep" is the yellow vegetable — Brassica napobrassica, or Brassica napus var. napobrassica — called 'swede' in southern England and 'rutabaga' in North America.)

"Kids! What's it gonna be tonight? Pizza, or leftover oatmeal boiled in Dolly's tummy with liver and brains and whatever else was left on the butcher block? We can go to McDona................Okay, get in the car."

I've had haggis with cinnamon and raisens and all sorts of nuts and stuff, but the ingredients were pre-prepared and then stuffed in the casing for presentation. Traditional haggis had no spice but salt and pepper, if that, because nothing much made it to the Isle of Skye from the orient for most of Scottish history.

I've also had the real thing cooked till everything would be 'done' boiled in a sheep's/pig's stomach. Whole grain oat meal and raw brains, lungs, goodies. Do not err on the side of delicacy; cook it so it's safe. Given the ingredients and their shelf life already, you want to cook it well. Suet is for taste, by the way. I ate it, but I eat anything, and that American fast food has taken over the world should not be a surprise.

Haggis would be buried and forgot if not for Robert Burns and his terrible poetry, fortunately mostly left in unpronounceable phonetic gibberish. Three members of my immediate family are named for Robert Burns, so I share this with you at some risk. But if I can save one child from having to eat haggis, it will be worth it. Also? It's fatty and bad for you big time, notwithstanding the oatmeal benefits.

[wild]

fortunately mostly left in unpronounceable phonetic gibberish.You will be pleased to hear that the same gibberish is supported by your tax dollars in grants to Northern Ireland.Your cousins the Ulster Scots convinced Uncle Sam that it was a language in its own right and should be preserved.

[clw]

Horse, you're doing so well here I almost stayed out of this....

But I have to add something. Cultures evolve. We are not the same people we were in 1876 and neither are the Lakota. But in spite of military defeat, reservations, Indian schools, the Dawes Act, discrimination, uranium poisoning, commods, liquor, Dickie Wilson and the FBI, and everything else we've tried to do to them...... they're still here. And while their way of life has evolved, just as ours has, their cultural and spiritual (you can't separate the two) traditions are strong. We haven't even killed their sense of humor which is legendary. They may not live in tipis anymore but there are plenty who own one and they sure do make a great guest house. I can say without a doubt...... if our infrastucture ever falls apart, I'm heading straight for South Dakota because these people know how to survive.

Even if it means I have to eat wasna, which I hate!

[crzhrs]

It wasn't until the 1960s that American Indians fully resolved to retain or get back to what they once had. Obviously they or we cannot go back in time and it would be very difficult for modern Indians and/or Whites to be able to handle the lifestyles of the 1800s or even early 1900s.

Indians are trying to recapture their religious and spiritual lives which is the center of their culture . . . they may not want to live in tipis but recapturing their center is their goal.

[Dark Cloud]

When was this 1960's vote/decision by American Indians to "to retain or get back to what they once had" and "recapture their religious and spiritual lives which is the center of their culture?" Is that actually true? Some may have. More bolted.

Most, though, discovered and have played beautifully how to cash in on being an Indian in a nation of wealth with a lot of gullible and bored white people looking for spiritual enlightenment, whatever they conceive that to be and only because the soap operas are in rerun. These rubes are identifiable as world class marks from the scorch marks on their clothing, and this from the spontaneous combustion of unearned cash jammed in the pockets. But, good on them, all parties involved deserve what they get.

I find all talk of mass spiritualism and religion somehow conforms tightly to how much cash is in it, and I'm looking at you Huge In Name Only Christian Churches In Direct Violation Of Christ's Direction To Pray Silently In A Closet. American Indians religions are - or were, anyway - rather diverse, and the Great Spirit - Sky God unifying motif may or may not have appeared as zealous white folk, trying to convert them, suggested that warring and competitive gods might actually be One.

There was no Indian 'culture' but many. And I remain deeply suspicious that all defeated people somehow discover religion was always their most important life force with the implication that they are above earthly concerns as they somehow hover above their conquerors. It's an admission of defeat, long overdue, and needs to be seen as such. Happens to everyone, sooner than later.

[crzhrs]

You are being obtuse about "voting."

The Indian Movement of the 1960s and '70s was not about money. Various Indian groups took over Alcatrez, Federal Buildings in Washington, and Wounded Knee II took place in 1973. And none of the Indians were thinking money. Lives were lost at WK II. The American Indian Movement (AIM) was part of the turbulent '60s when the youth of America realized that what had taken place in the past was not fully told in school books, Hollywood movies, or TV. I was part of it and I'm still proud to retain the beliefs I had back then. They may have mellowed but the philosophy remains the same.

And when I said Indian culture I was using a generic term.

You may want to read Red Power: The American Indians Fight for Freedom ('71) and Now That the Buffalo's Gone ('82) by Alan Josephy for info that might enlighten your jaded views.

[Dark Cloud]

You said "It wasn't until the 1960s that American Indians fully resolved to retain or get back to what they once had." How was this resolution obtained, and by who? Since you simply say "American Indians," and not "a portion of....", you are speaking for all Indians or, at least, the majority. And that's an absurdity.

The "Indian Movement" of the 1960's wasn't particularly about money directly, but it represented what percentage of American Indians? And if not directly about money, it was definitely about power and who was to wield it, and money is power. Given Russell Means has thrown his physical support to the likes of Ward Churchill it's tough to claim it was much about Indians either if that's his idea of a valid issue to take to the mattresses over. Or if that's his idea of an Indian.

I've read those books years ago. In turn, you might want to read more than Josephy, whose first name is Alvin, not Alan. You might also be interested to know that aside from Ward Churchill, the Native American Rights Fund is based in Boulder, and these issues are not infrequently raised in casual conversation hereabouts by people who quite assuredly know all about it and what they're talking about.

Like Fatah or the IRA, AIM tried and tries to present itself as representing a people. It doesn't, never has, and seemingly flippant asides that might lead the unwary to conclude a decision was made or a meeting ever convened to consider making it ought not to be left uncontested.

[wild]

Like Fatah or the IRA, AIM tried and tries to present itself as representing a people. It doesn't,
Incorrect.The IRA was the legally constituted army of the elected government of Ireland.

[clw]

Ah, DC. Wise men cannot argue with what a fool believes. And that's is reference to two post back. AIM has been argued into the ground. Russell Means is a has been -- old news.

[Dark Cloud]

How would you know, clw?

[clw]

I can't post fast enough to keep up here!

DC, I won't argue this with you. It's not about winning, but about knowing. Your truth and mine are very different. And neither of us will change what we believe.