Vinatieri's Horses

[fred]

I much prefer the "range" business to an absolute. To me, that is the most serious shortcoming in Gray's analyses & it is what people like West (I believe) & the old Twomoons used to complain about in his writings. They have a point & Gray becomes too arbitrary, ultimately assigning values in several instances. In that regard, Jack Pennington's work & his so-called "event-time-event" analysis (whatever the hell that means) is probably more usable in placing events.

I like your range, Elisabeth, & I especially like the fact that "d o harris" agrees. He certainly seems to know his horses.

And, Elisabeth, you are correct. It could lead to some changes. How dramatic, I have no idea at this time, but it is something I am working on.

Oh, by the way: 5. Five on each hand; 10, total.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

Five. Good to know. I'll remember that. Thanks!

Yes, it could be very interesting if, for instance, it got Custer to MTC earlier than we think ...

[d o harris]

No, Fred, I do not know horses, except to stay off of them. But, in 1957-58 I knew some jockeys and horsemen who raced at Caliente and Del Mar, (definitely, it isn't Delmar) and I tried to pay attention to what they had to say, except when they were looking for investors. Then I ignored the hell out of them.
As I mentioned earlier, what I know of the pacing of a horse was acquired by watching a film of a dog or being told by a rider. (Of a horse, not a dog) In those days at Caliente you could watch ten horse races in the afternoon, and twelve dog races in the evening. This, apparently, confused some of the owners. They had animals running in the day races that were obviously more suited for the evening events.

[d o harris]

This could lead to some serious revision to Gray's time analysis. I concluded several months ago that he altered, adjusted, assigned values to force fit everything to Benteen-Reno uniting at 4:20. Rather than analyze the evidence and go where it led, he knew where he wanted to go and "forced" the evidence to take him there.
If you are going to dig at this, Fred, I'd suggest you completely review Benteen's oblique first. I did in an attempt to demonstrate he dogged it. What I found was the complete opposite.
Elisabeth, I concede. A lope is a canter. But, did Herendeen know that? I considered it a long, but easy, stride.

[elisabeth]

True enough, Herendeen could have been using it to describe a canter or an easy gallop. I concede right back.

Didn't someone say there was going to be a trail ride over the ground this summer? If anyone of "ours" is going on that, it'd be great if they could keep a record of the timings. The conditions would be very different, of course (or so I'd hope, for the horses' sakes) but I'm sure Fred could factor in an adjustment for that ...

[mcaryf]

Varnum said at the RCOI that he thought the distance travelled by Reno on the valley bottom was around 2 miles and that it took 15 - 20 minutes. Thus consistent with 8 mph - he also described the gait as a fast trot rather than a gallop.

Regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

Makes sense, both for control and for not using up the horses. But "a fast trot" at 8mph really underlines the need to re-examine Gray, doesn't it!

[alfuso]

crzhrs

what was "pushing" the horses? If anything they were "pushed" during Reno's 10 day scout. That's when they got tired and didn't have but 2 days to try to recover before the march to the LBH.

An average day's march for cavalry then was 20-25 miles. Not a bad day once horses and men were used to it. They'd been in the field a little over a month. An average day meant on the march by 6 a.m. march for 8 hours, with the requisite hourly breaks. Turn into camp by *2p.m*. A forced marched merely meant 30-35 miles a day which meant on the march by 6 a.m, and going into camp bcy 4 or 5 pm with all the requisite hourly breaks. Even on June 24 there was a break of several hours while scouts backtracked to check on a canyon to the left that they had by-passed.

It was Reno's scout that "ruined" some of the horses.

alfuso

[fred]

"d o harris"--

Let me tell you something: when I need information on horses, I will come to you. I had a friend once, who told me that if you read 6 books on the same subject, you are an expert. That has always stuck in my mind & the information you provided fits very nicely into that category.

I am in 100% agreement w/ you about Gray, even the 4:20/Reno/Benteen get-together & everything fitting into that time-frame. I also agree w/ you about Benteen & his oblique & the fact that-- despite my 2 friends, CSS & West-- Benteen did not dog it in trying to get back.

I have this theory that a lot more of the battle can be properly explained if we can fit the various pieces into a better time-frame than what we have now. I agree that the Benteen-oblique is an extremely important part of the whole thing, but I am also sure that the timing situation goes back even further. There are contradictions all over the place, fomented & exaggerated by the anti-Wallace accusations & his testimony at the Reno Inquiry. Pennington goes into some of it, but nothing compared to the more empirical approach Gray used. Gray, unfortunately-- like you alluded to-- seemed to have an agenda. Maybe I do as well, because I am a Benteen-supporter, but I think you can convince a lot of people that the intrepid captain was not so bad after all. I have gathered a lot of data & now it simply remains for me to put it all together.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[crzhrs]

Has anyone ever figured out how fast the horses were going during Reno's retreat? Apparently they still had some oomph left to run. However, it was said by many Indians that they would ride up to mounted troopers and club them off their horses.

We know the Indians ponies were far more agile and quicker than the soldiers' horses, and the Indians were far superior as horsemen . . . so in a race to escape, the Indian ponies were able to catch up to the soldiers' horses and the Indians inflicted damage

[mcaryf]

Reno's retreat/charge was not necessarily conducted flat out both Varnum and Dr Porter stated at RCOI that they managed to overtake a fair number in the column. Varnum in particular got to the head of it after being a way back.

It would make sense not to go flat out as they would find it hard to maintain the column of 4's formation that they had adopted as the best way to drive through the Indians.

I think the real problem might have been that the inexperienced troopers expended all their pistol ammo at too long a range and after that they would be pretty well defenceless. I admit that it would be hard for anyone to resist shooting back at Indians pumping Winchester bullets into them from 100 yds away. In this particular phase of the battle the cavalry weapons were just not up to the job.

Regards

Mike

[fred]

Mike--

Varnum rode a KY thoroughbred, so I can understand his overtaking of the retreating men. I have also read-- somewhere-- that Reno's panicked men reached speeds of 10 mph. Again, here's that "absolute" again. A man can sprint faster than that, even a short guy in leather boots & w/ 900 yappin' war-whoops chasing my ass I'll bet I could do it for longer than you think.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[crzhrs]

I gotta believe if the troopers were panicking then they must have been pushing their horses as fast as possible . . . whooping, yipping, hideously painted men, with not much clothes on coming after me would cause me to get my horse movin'!

[maaloxmya19]

MOST of Custer's Horses were thoroughbreds:
... he re-horsed in Kentucky when he occupied a Klan area the same way he did Texas (where he whipped a man for stealing a Peach "that's a Confederate Peach, not a Union Peach"). A Special Good Deal.

But note: they were getting Old. But for years Custer had the FASTEST Horse unit in the World. The only PROBLEM with these horses, is: their slim legs made them EXTRA skittish about stepping in holes & it was almost impossible to make them swim a river.
_ Sitting Bull noticed & frustrated Custer Several times, years before LBH, just by crossing a River.

_ Benteen had the SAME good reputation in New Orleans!
He was SO proud of getting TOP horses, he thought he was UNIQUE in the Army ... when the unit reunited ... & Custer had them too, it helped make him a Custer Enemy seemingly before he met him.

Of course it makes one ashamed for the U.S. that they stuck out
for just being ... Just.

Comanche, an ordinary horse, looked like a Shrimp in the 7th,.
_ Indians practically salivated at getting Custer Horses, remarking the Enormous beasts would be Great to pull lodges with.

[AZ Ranger]

I believe Fred is on the right track when talking about ranges for speeds at different gaits. I currently have three horses a Quarterhorse, a Tennessee Walker and a Missouri Foxtroter. there is no way my Quarterhorse can keep up with the Tennessee Walker on a four hour ride.

The trot is is used to cover long distances without wearing out the horse. The effect on the rider could be different depending on how rough the trot. On my quarter horse I stand the trot. If Benteen or any other officer had to move from one location to another for anything other than a short distance than the trot is the appropriate gait to use. If you needed to go into a charge when you got there you could do it from the trot and expect your horse to be ready. The trot itself can vary in speed. My favorite horse Casey, who moved on to greener pastures, could trot as fast as most horses could lope. He came off a ranch near my home and had to cover lots of country each day in the first 10 years of his life.

The canter and lope are the same gaits and are terms used interchangeably.

I would suggest that the range was limited by the size of the unit and the maximum speed of the poorest horses. The larger the unit such as the Regiment would travel slower than a Company. If you have ever marched in a large group you would know that persons in front walk and the tail-end runs to keep up.
As far as the poorest horses, once they start dropping out the speed slows down or they are left behind. So while the horses in the best condition may have it easy to do 30 miles in a day, the poorest horse were giving everything they had to keep up.

I believe the charge to be the fastest speed of the gallop. I don't think the gait changes but the horse is at his maximum speed. To me it is the most dangerous speed because the horse is a prey animal and the fight or flight defense mechanism kicks in. The rider has asked his horse for maximum flight but is taking the horse into a fight. That takes a lot of training to be able to control horse at that speed. That would also explain why some of the horses ran into the village when the others stopped.

azranger