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Post by d o harris on May 12, 2006 17:42:13 GMT -6
A professional race jockey once told me that a horse can give you everything it has got for about 3/16 of a mile. After that it is shot unless you allow it to sit back and relax. Then, a good horse, one of championship quality, can give you another burst of 3/16 of a mile. He derived this knowledge, he said, not only from his experience on the race track, but also from his study of horses in the wild. He further stated that when training, and walking, trotting, galloping, a horse was very near inexhausible, if it had short periods of relaxation. I do not know that this is true. All I do know is that this was told me by a successful jockey who rode at Woodine in 1956.
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Post by El Crab on May 12, 2006 19:56:54 GMT -6
Gibbon praised the condition of the Seventh's horses before they left on their own on June 22nd. He thought them to be in rather good shape, apparently.
"Nap" was from E Company. Besides, the trumpeters, Cooke and the musicians did not ride Grays. They rode White horses, or so say the books.
Some 70-odd recruits walked, because they were expected to find extra horses waiting for them at the Powder River Depot. They weren't there, so they mostly stayed. Dennis Lynch also gave up his horse and went aboard the Far West to accompany Custer's baggage.
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Post by elisabeth on May 13, 2006 0:36:44 GMT -6
d. o., your riding experience sounds just like mine. The last time I was on a horse without total humiliation, I, too, was 3 1/2. Ever after: disaster.
Interesting, what that jockey says. I've read somewhere that the Indians were in the habit of galloping their ponies hard before a battle, so that they'd get their second wind in time for the real thing; I don't know if it's true, but it fits with the jockey's second burst.
In theory, on the march, horses were dismounted at regular intervals for about ten minutes or so, for the relaxation you describe. But whether they got those halts on the march on the 25th, no-one seems to say ... A lot of horses weren't even unsaddled after the night march, poor brutes, as troopers just flopped down and slept. That, and no water, can't have done much for their condition ...
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Post by alfuso on May 13, 2006 7:05:16 GMT -6
El Crrab
gray is a term for white horses. All white horses are technically "grays" unless they are albino, then they are white.
"GRAY in horses is an animal which is born dark, and gradually the entire haircoat changes to white. It is more properly termed GRAYING or AGING GRAY, but if you see a white horse (with dark skin), he is really a GRAY. The term is really chopped and shortened for a process, and gives no thought to the original darker color, which can be interesting when genetics are mapped. There are some terms for stages of the GRAYING process - Steel gray if they are a dark blue, rose gray if a bay or chestnut is graying out and is mixed red and white hairs, dapple gray if the lighter color dapples appear in the coat. There are also fleabitten grays (white with darker, usually red, hairs sprinkled throughout) and almost pure-white (the advanced stage) grays."
The Scots Grays were white horses.
alfuso
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maqua
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by maqua on May 13, 2006 8:48:23 GMT -6
A truly fascinating thread!!!
Many thanks to all who contributed as I really learned a great deal.
Billy, your links to the Cemetery info were great -- providing some long unanswered questions regarding burials in Minnesota.
Thanks again!! ;D Steve
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Post by fred on May 13, 2006 10:30:05 GMT -6
Alfuso--
Would you please tell me where you got that quote. I would like to include it in my notes & would appreciate the attribution. Thanks.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by elisabeth on May 13, 2006 11:08:30 GMT -6
You probably see the process most dramatically in the famous Lippizzaner (Austrian Riding School) horses. The foals are born almost black, then grow up into the stunningly theatrical greys we know and love. Same with the Carmargue horses, I believe. Connemara ponies, too -- see the pix here: www.imh.org/imh/bw/conn.html
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Post by El Crab on May 13, 2006 12:39:41 GMT -6
El Crrab gray is a term for white horses. All white horses are technically "grays" unless they are albino, then they are white. "GRAY in horses is an animal which is born dark, and gradually the entire haircoat changes to white. It is more properly termed GRAYING or AGING GRAY, but if you see a white horse (with dark skin), he is really a GRAY. The term is really chopped and shortened for a process, and gives no thought to the original darker color, which can be interesting when genetics are mapped. There are some terms for stages of the GRAYING process - Steel gray if they are a dark blue, rose gray if a bay or chestnut is graying out and is mixed red and white hairs, dapple gray if the lighter color dapples appear in the coat. There are also fleabitten grays (white with darker, usually red, hairs sprinkled throughout) and almost pure-white (the advanced stage) grays." The Scots Grays were white horses. alfuso Cooke was said to ride a White horse. Which always led me to believe it wasn't technically a Gray. Same goes for the band. Always mentioned as riding Whites, not Grays. Perhaps they were really riding white Grays, and not actual White horses, but I digress.
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Post by fred on May 13, 2006 16:07:05 GMT -6
Reading what "d o Harris" & Elisabeth have written about the speed of horses & remembering Gray said a gallop was 8 mph, what speed would we venture to guess Reno reached when he charged down the valley? Or is that not a fair question? Is there a speed faster than a gallop? (And please don't say "wallop"!) And if "gallop" is the fastest (which I am assuming), should we classify it in a range as opposed to a definitive number?
(What I find interesting here is that Gray had this tendency to classify things in a very definitive manner: everything was absolute; there were no gray areas (oh-h, God!!). Some of his times were to the second, his speeds were absolute, no variations... .)
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by alfuso on May 13, 2006 19:10:20 GMT -6
Well, I guess some people who don't know better call grays "white" because they look white. Even a "flea bitten gray" is a "white" horse with sprinkles of roan hairs. But *technically* these horses are grays unless they are albinos. Lipizzans are an excellant example. Basically horses are "gray" if the skin is dark. got my info from 1. being around horses much of my life and 2. www.geocities.com/muleguru/grays1.htmlalfuso
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Post by fred on May 13, 2006 22:45:39 GMT -6
Alfuso--
Thanks.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by elisabeth on May 13, 2006 22:56:12 GMT -6
Fred, I'm sure you're right about a speed range for the gallop. For instance, there's a source here that gives a speed of 30 mph: www.funnysnaps.com/igait.htmland racehorses can go much faster than that. But these weren't blood horses, they were tired, and they were carrying weight, so it'd be fair to knock a good bit off the speed a fresh and unladen horse could do. Even halving it, though, it's a lot more than Gray's 8 mph. What would you think of "8 to 15 mph" as a rough range? But then again ... I've just read a contemporary source (well, Civil War era) that recommended the trot rather than the gallop for a charge, on the grounds that you could maintain formation better that way. (The same source said it was useless to charge with firearms, as you couldn't aim, and that the sabre was the only practical weapon for a cavalry charge. Another can of worms re-opened!)
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Post by fred on May 13, 2006 23:02:10 GMT -6
Elisabeth--
Wow! Here we go again!
Yes, I think you are correct about the 8-15 range. I know I could not sustain it, but in my prime I could easily run faster than 8 mph. Can you just see me out-running Reno's "galloping" horses as we all charge down the valley? Kinda silly, don't you think?
I like your 8 to 15 mph. As a matter of fact, I'll bet you a euro to a British pound, Reno's men were going a lot faster than 8 mph when they were leaving the valley.
Best wishes, Fred.
PS-- See ya, Sweetheart. I'm going to bed! FCW
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Post by d o harris on May 14, 2006 4:37:32 GMT -6
30mph is considerably faster than my notion of a gallop. Several years ago I watched a program on Discovery that analyzed natural changes in gait as a four-legged increases speed. The animal I recall was a dog. As the dog picked up speed from a walk it went into a natural trotting stride, left fore moving in unison with right hind, and right fore with left hind. As the dog picked up speed it went into a natural pacing stride, left fore & left hind; right fore & right hind. In each of these the dog had two feet on the ground at all times. As it increased speed from the pace it developed a fore and aft movement, and at some point in each stride all four paws were off the ground simultaneously. This is what I have always regarded as a gallop---whenever a horse achieves a pace that brings all four feet off the ground at the same time. This does not require a maximum effort from the horse. In other words, the gallop is a gait. It could vary in speed from Herendeen's lope to a flat out charge. Or, from 8-15mph.
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Post by elisabeth on May 14, 2006 5:58:18 GMT -6
You're right, of course; a gallop doesn't have to be a flat-out charge, just the gait you describe. (Though a "lope" is strictly speaking a canter, isn't it?) The action's shown quite neatly in the animation linked to in Reply #26 above, and even better in this famous Muybridge photo sequence: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gaits#GallopWe all seem to agree, then, that Gray's 8mph is right at the low end of any feasible range ...? Could be interesting to go back and see whether that affects anything vital in his timings: whether upping the pace to, say, a conservative 12mph would force a re-evaluation of any of his conclusions. (I'm not a good enough mathematician to tackle that, myself -- can barely count my fingers! -- but someone might enjoy having a go ...)
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