Was Custer planning a waiting fight?

[elisabeth]

In the "Benteen's orders" thread, bafflement has surfaced (mine and Mike's, at least) as to just what Custer was thinking: the "waiting" question, the loss-of-surprise question, etc.

Unless we take a giant leap to imagining a Custer who's suddenly lost his nerve or lost his skills -- not impossible, but the least likely option -- we surely have to assume he had something sensible in mind.

See if you think this is a possible interpretation:

Custer starts out planning a Washita-style multi-pronged attack. He sets the ball rolling with Reno. So far, so good.

Then, from Weir or Sharpshooter (take your pick), he sees the size of the village. Ooops. The scouts were right after all. Better think again.

There's just one slim chance; the village looks quiet. If there's no defence at Ford B, there just might be the chance of a strike -- costly, but worthwhile. He sends E & F to test it out. They're fired on from the timber along the river bank. Impossible to judge the strength of the opposition here, but there is some; E & F have done their job and are recalled. So much for that option.

Right, he thinks. Only one thing to do. The village is far too big for his one puny regiment. But he has already achieved the impossible in finding it. Terry and Gibbon are due tomorrow -- with more men and, ideal for the village's dense configuration, the Gatlings. Better still, the Indians have chosen to stand, not scatter. If he can hold them there, in stalemate, until Terry comes up, the combined force can whip them ... or, just as useful for the mission, negotiate them into submission.

Reno, he thinks, is probably toast by now; too bad; but he's already sent for Benteen and the packs to consolidate what's left of his force. Meanwhile, he strings out his battalion in as obvious, visible, and threatening a position as he can, parallel with the line of the village. There's desultory firing, but no great harm done on either side; if he can keep it like that till nightfall, all will be fine. These mild hostilities can resume in the morning, and then Terry will arrive. The Boy Wonder has done it again. (Perhaps he even does, as per Curley, send the messenger on the sorrel-roan horse to Terry, with a "big village -- be quick -- bring Gatlings" message.)

Where it goes wrong is that (1) Reno is not totally toast, and has diverted Benteen; (2) he's for once misread the terrain, and hasn't spotted the infiltration; and (3) because it's all going so well, he thinks he can take his eye off the ball with a quick recce to the north, ready for tomorrow's combined assault. This opens up the far end of Battle Ridge, allowing Keogh's battalion to be surrounded. And by an unfortunate coincidence, Lame White Man and Crazy Horse launch their assaults almost simultaneously. By the time Custer hears, from the firing, that things have got out of hand, it's too late for him to do anything; he can only hunker down on LSH and hope for the best ...

What do you think? A waiting fight? It's not like him, I know, but is it conceivable?

[shatonska]

mmm , if he intended to wait for terry better go back and unite forces south of the village to recreate the original fork plan

[michigander]

yes if he was not so quicly surrounded on the south too! Martini had shot horse coming back remember. The situation was already hot. When Custer could have decided to come back it was already too late

[El Crab]

I sent a similar theory to Michno.

Mine was that Custer, having found the village still in its place and Indians willing to stand up and fight, decided to draw them out and engage them. And while not waiting for Benteen, he might have figured at some point, by his moving north, a fresh battalion could then show up from the south (Benteen), squeezing the Indians between two forces.

Its my own little pet theory, that Custer moved north because he had not only achieved surprise, but was fortunate enough to actually find Indians that were willing to fight a pitched battle.

[elisabeth]

Nice one, Crab. Interesting. What did Michno say to that?

Mine, though, sprang from wondering why Custer, having indeed achieved surprise, chose to let it trickle away the way he did. And why he'd place troops so visibly along Battle Ridge, in an essentially static role, rather than doing anything more aggressive with them. --- Trying to solve a conundrum, really. Because while the waiting-for-Benteen theory is OK, it has its flaws, and perhaps needs to be tested with other possible explanations ...

[El Crab]

elisabeth said:

Nice one, Crab. Interesting. What did Michno say to that?

Mine, though, sprang from wondering why Custer, having indeed achieved surprise, chose to let it trickle away the way he did. And why he'd place troops so visibly along Battle Ridge, in an essentially static role, rather than doing anything more aggressive with them. --- Trying to solve a conundrum, really. Because while the waiting-for-Benteen theory is OK, it has its flaws, and perhaps needs to be tested with other possible explanations ...

I'll try to find the email, but he thought it was a theory with merit.

[elisabeth]

It certainly fits with his reaction on getting all those "the Indians are all before me" messages from Reno; he sees the Indians' willingness to fight as an opportunity, not a danger.

So, Custer dashes off north, thinking -- what? That he can get behind the warrior force responding to Reno, and attack it from the rear? Or can drive south through the village, destroying everything in his path? Then, sees the size of it, and switches plans to making a demonstration along the ridges to draw warriors out ... Do you see him as thinking he can win an outright victory in a pitched battle on broken ground? Or just hold them long enough for something else to happen, be it Benteen from the south or (eventually) Terry from the north?

shatonska, michigander: the problem with going back to the south is that he then no longer threatens the village. If he waits there, yes, the regiment can consolidate, and the 7th would get out in (more or less) one piece; but the Indians are free to pack up and disappear. It might funnel them north towards Terry -- who might or might not be able to survive a clash with them -- but more likely they'd just scatter, and the whole thing would be an abject failure. They'd have to start all over again, tracking them down band by band.

If he'd realised the trouble he was in, it would have made sense to fight his way south. But it seems clear he still thought he could achieve something. The difficulty is figuring out just what that "something" was!

[michigander]

Again, no sense to go south for me. The indians were already swarming. Going south, instead than in 1 and a half hour he would have been butchered in 20 minuts.

[shatonska]

michigander said:

Again, no sense to go south for me. The indians were already swarming. Going south, instead than in 1 and a half hour he would have been butchered in 20 minuts.

destroyed by whoolf thoot band in 20 minutes ? Martini alone could go back and Custer with 5 companies could not ?
at the moment Elizabeth supposition is placed Custer could easily go back and was probably in time to help Reno covering his retreat from the east side of the river soon joined by benteen and packs
then who knows ? warriors had not the 600 ( rifles and colts )guns and ammunitions that had against reno and benteen on the hill and had to face 600 soldiers

[michigander]

After Martini left. It was not an easy ride. Was it? The situation worsened just after he left. At the moment Martini left, the danger was not so evident, but it must have been when all the indians left from Reno swarmed around Custer. If you prefere: Custer discovered the "trap" too late, when he had no more chance to join back with Reno.

[shatonska]

mich
Martini left ,10 minutes later on the ridge he saw reno still fighting in the valley , fight in the wood and fight for the retreat , another 40 minutes before those warriors left to go against Custer , it means Custer had at least 50 minutes without a serious treath ,
when Custer moved on battle ridge he could still decide to go back towards Weir , at that time there were warriors between him and reno hill but not so many to stop the retreat of 5 companies ( take out the possibility of Custer being at ford D as i think at the moment )

[michigander]

This doesn't make sense, Shatonska. Do you remember that Martini testified as soon as he started he saw troopers going down on mtc? Also I don't know where you get your "times references" but they result to me wrong. Martini state that Custer, when decided to send him back, knew nothing about Reno difficulties. So we have one Commander that think all is going allright and find one village bigger than expected. He ask for ammunitions-support and start his "scout" (or what you want to call it) down the ravine ("the last I saw of the command they were going down the ravine"). Few minuts later, the fight started ("I was back on the hill again, but before I got there I heard firing back of me") then, Martini, just before to reach the hill met Boston Custer. The line of Reno was falling back. 15 minuts after Martini left Custer.
When Custer moved his troops he didn't knew what was happening to Reno and he may have thought his plan could have run. Until he met Boston, that knew about Reno withdrawal. This must have changed plan.
Not all the indians were facing Reno. But probably, Custer thought this way, instead (custer myth pag 293) "the greater part of the Sioux had not gone to meet Reno; but before Martini was out of sight, attacked him (custer) on the ravine which led to the ford in such number as to force him further down the river than he had intended to do. And there, driven back by the hordes which cut him off from Reno...ecc ecc"
while Reno was fighting, Custer was fighting. But, when Reno left, Custer was alone. This, to make it as clear as possible, is not an accusation to Reno, but simply to demonstrate that if ever one support was not coming from Custer, it was because he was himself already engaged and hotly busy.
Again: according to De Rudio, the skirmish line lasted "over 10 minuts if it lasted so", and Reno line was already falling back when Martini saw them. Put the fact that Boston need the same time of Martin to join with the command (15 minuts). So the 40 minuts are wrong. Probably, he had to made a plan change that could cope with the fact he was loosing the south front. And this was happening while even the timber positions were falling back. Also: Boston:"Hi bro, Reno it's having hard times and the line was falling back 10 minuts ago" Custer: "Ok, let's go back from where we came" This doesn't make sense at all. He had also one task to accomplish and, as he was not a suicidal man, he surely may have thought that there was one solution at that moment.

[shatonska]

mich i agree with you ( beside the abstruse accounts of martini that changes opinion in every account first he never turn back to see later in the years he remembers custer retreating on cahloun ... )but here we were speaking of the possibility of Custer acting defensively ( i don't think so , i think he moved offensively in the coulee) , we are analizing a possibility and i think that went he sent martini he could come back with no problem ,
my timing is clear martini saw reno went to benteen and came back on reno hill ( 40 minutes at least )and those 1000 warriors were still in the valley give them at least another 10 minuter to gain the ford and all those warriors saw companies retreating toward cahloun , these means at least 50 minutes for Custer to decide to come back south ( again i think differently , i think that Custer moved north as soon as he had divided companies leaving keogh on the ridges over the ford but here we are analizing another possibility , custer acting defensively )

[michigander]

Not ALL the indians were facing Reno, nor the majority of them. Secon, there is a slightly but important difference between my scenario and yours: yours undermean one blame for Custer that didn't choosed to come back earlier; I say instead that when Custer had a perfect knowledge of the whole situation, it was too late to come back. Also remind you of my invented words: okay bro, let's come back from where we came. This would have been really senseless at that moment. Later, when was necessary to withdraw to save the regiment, The doors were closed.
I analyze the possibility that I think most possible: Custer acting under growing pressure and quickly flying events. Not necessarily defensive, but he had to adapt his former plan to the running events.

[shatonska]

michigander said:

: yours undermean one blame for Custer that didn't choosed to come back earlier; I say instead that when Custer had a perfect knowledge of the whole situation, it was too late to come back. .

not exxatly so , i say that if Custer was thinking defensively , as Elizabeth try to analize in this topic , instead of moving on battle ridge he would have choosed to go back south , but i don't' think he was thinking defensively but he went on with the offensive untill it was too late to save the companies as you say