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Post by crzhrs on Apr 14, 2006 11:26:16 GMT -6
At the Reno COI Martini made these statements:
1. Gen. Custer saw the village with NO indians in it
NO Indians?
2. Custer called Cooke & said to write a dispatch to Benteen. Cooke called me and said to go to Benteen.
From that, Custer did not directly tell Martini anything . . . only Cooke who wrote down the order.
3. Saw Reno fight but paid no attention to it
Paid no attention to it, then states later that Reno was killing Indians left and right.
4. After giving Benteen note was told to go to McDougall and bring up pack train and KEEP IT MOVING
Apparently Benteen was concerned about the slowness of the packtrain and made it clear to keep the animals moving
5. After giving Benteen orders, Benteen went a little livelier
Benteen did speed up his progress . . . but what does "a little livelier? mean?
5. He could see dogs & children around tepees
Custer saw NO Indians but Martini said he himself saw dogs and children around tepees (Where were the men and women?) Does no Indians mean NO warriors, still where were the adults?
Something a little fishing about Martini's testimony?
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Post by Jim on Apr 14, 2006 15:38:44 GMT -6
crzhrs,
I will defer to Michigander, he is the ONLY true Italian on this board and may be able to defend him. However, my view on question #5 (the 2nd #5), is that all the adults (Warriors & Women) were across the street from LBH at the Casino!?!?!?
Happy Easter (Almost), Jim
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Apr 14, 2006 16:16:25 GMT -6
The women and children were supposedly running to the northwest. The men would have been either busy with Reno ir wating for their horses on the northern end of the village. That is why I tend to believe there were enough warriors to take care of Custer and Reno's forces at the same time. The retreat of Reno's forces only allowed more overkill on Custer.
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Apr 14, 2006 16:21:00 GMT -6
Martini is a rather poor eyewitness. He couldn't stick with the same story, no wonder he made such a poor messenger. It is easy to see how his and Kanipe's remarks would have confused Benteen into believing the battle was already won. In truth, Custer had not yet begun his fight until Martini was gone.
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Post by Jim on Apr 14, 2006 18:09:47 GMT -6
The Non-Coms ran towards the Western bluffs (where the pony herds were at) or to Squaw Creek/Chasing Creek, just to the West of Gibbon's Ford. I don't know why GAC did not see the Warriors, unless the trees on the West side of the LBH masked the 800 - 900 warriors that were seen by Reno's INITIAL charge.
I do agree with Bob's belief that Martini was a POOR witness when it came to his testimony as to what he told Benteen!
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Post by mcaryf on Apr 15, 2006 2:58:00 GMT -6
Both Martini and Kanipe are really inconsistent in what they say.
If you compare Martini's version in "The Custer Myth" he says he was misunderstood by the RCOI and he was not sent on to Packtrain. This is reasonable as Kanipe had just been sent. In "The Custer Myth" he also starts to invent direct conversation between himself and Custer to the effect that "ammunition" packs should be brought up. Plainly this was fantasy and designed to increase his status as "the last living person to have spoken to Custer".
If we now look at the version of the Kanipe story in "The Custer Myth" we see Kanipe reaching the Packtrain first and then going on to Benteen. He then rides on with Benteen and meets up with the packtrain that seems to have got to Reno Hill first! Again this is all pure fantasy.
I am inclined to go with the Benteen account that has him meeting Kanipe who says he has a message for the Packtrain and Benteen directs him on to where it is. I suspect that Kanipe never delivered the hurry up message to Benteen and just gave the impression that Benteen had missed the party as the Indians were all running away.
I have been looking at the History Channel forum and seen an interesting analysis of Benteen's timing there. According to that poster Benteen does not really pick up speed after meeting Kanipe but really steps on it after the Martini message.
Regards
Mike
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Apr 16, 2006 7:56:25 GMT -6
Mike, You may very well be correct. If Kanipe delivered the message he said he did to either Mathey or McDougall, then the pack train should have turned off of the trail and headed to the northwest to intersect with Custer. Why then did Kanipe just fall in with his buddies with the pack train instead of leading it to where only HE had any idea of Custer's general location? The only possible answer is that Mathey or McDougall (whichever one received the supposed message) ignored the orders (unlikely) or he did not deliver the message he later said he had. Did he leave out part of it? Most likely.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Apr 17, 2006 15:10:41 GMT -6
If Kanipe did not deliver the/a message to the pack train, how did he justify his arrival there? What DID he say when he arrived?
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Apr 17, 2006 16:07:07 GMT -6
I think he delivered a message to hurry up but that was all. I just don't think he told them the part about getting off of the trail and moving cross country to Custer. McDougall later admitted receiving some meesage delivered by Kanipe but was not specific about what it was. None of the officers would have risked a court-martial by deliberately disobeying orders of that magnitude. Remember, they had no idea that Custer would be killed at that time.
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Post by El Crab on Apr 18, 2006 17:45:50 GMT -6
I would guess that its quite possible that Martini was only assuming that Reno was killing everyone left and right, as it seemed to be the overall mood of the regiment that they would win. So when he returned to his company, and no doubt was asked by those around him what was going on, he probably just guessed that the attacking battalions were in the village, since resistance seemed to be nil and the assumption was the regiment was going to kick a$$ and take names.
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Post by mcaryf on Apr 19, 2006 4:11:02 GMT -6
I have been looking at a map in Panzeri's book and it appears to show that the Packtrain would not have achieved much saving by a cross-country route from the point where Kanipe actually delivered his message although it might have done if he had arrived somewhat earlier or the train were further back (the trail turns to the left for a while just before the morass).
I am not sure how accurate the Panzeri map is so I have asked some people familiar with the ground on another forum whether my assumption about the lay of the land is correct.
Of course any decision to disregard the order would have to assume that the Packtrain commanders and Kanipe had a fairly clear idea of where Custer was and what the possible alternative routes might entail.
Kanipe was not a witness at the RCOI and so perhaps the Packtrain commanders did not think it necessary or helpful to have to try to explain why they had chosen to disregard Custer's last order to them.
I will let you know what the other forum tells me re the terrain unless of course somebody here is also very familiar with it. The Panzeri map is on page 51 of my edition.
Regards
Mike
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Apr 19, 2006 11:09:05 GMT -6
Mike, If he led them straight to where he left Tom Custer it would not have saved much time at all. However, the assumption would be that he knew the general direction the column was taking and he should lead the pack train at a wider angle to intersect with the column. At either rate, I don't think he delivered that part of the message or made it up in later years.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 19, 2006 11:28:15 GMT -6
Wouldn't the pack train have been vulnerable to Indian attack? I believe they had less men and with stubborn mules and heavily laden horses would have been sitting ducks.
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Post by Jim on Apr 19, 2006 14:55:54 GMT -6
I believe the pack train has something like 150 men attached to it. One full company and about 7 men and 1 N.C.O. from each other company.
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Post by mcaryf on Apr 19, 2006 17:19:17 GMT -6
My point was that at the location he actually met the train, it made virtually no difference whether they went cross country or not. If, however, he had met it about a mile further back then cross country would have been rather like the chord of a circle versus the circumference. This is because the trail actually swung away to be at right angles to the direction where Custer was for that mile. Cross country or trail was pretty much the same from that point on.
Regards
Mike
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