Kanipe's Message ...

[d o harris]

At the COI the testimony offered by Martini under questioning by Recorder Lee is intelligible, and I believe accurate. Reno's attorney, Lyman Gilbert, apparently saw some danger there, but unable to get a refutation from Martini asked short, rapid fire questions designed not to elicit the facts, but to confuse the witness, which he obviously succeeded in doing because of Martini's unfamiliarity with the language. It is easy to understand why Martini became confused. Think of the process he must have had to go through. He hears a question in English. In his mind he must translate this into Italian, then compose an answer in Italian, translate it into English and give his answer, all the while being pressured by Gilbert for a quick response. Gilbert used the same technique on DeRudio, and tried a similar approach with Girard, but the attempt of the lawyer to obfuscate and confuse testimony did not work as well with these witnesses.
Much of what Martini said in later years I regard as extremely dubious, and requires cross-referencing, or some supporting validation. However, what he said at the COI while under examination by Lt. Lee I think is extremely reliable and valuable.

[mcaryf]

Hi D O Harris

It is actually the testimony he gave to the Recorder which he is denying later about going on to McDougall and it was the testimony to the Recorder when he stated that he got the written orders from the Adjutant rather than speaking at all to Gen Custer which in later life he claims that he did.

It seems to me Martini's evidence is very doubtful both at the RCOI and later in print in "The Custer Myth" unless it somehow backs up other untainted evidence.

Regards

Mike

[d o harris]

Mike---to restate my point. Take what Martini said while under direct examination by recorder Lee, without reference to anything else he subsequently said. Examine this testimony in view of what Benteen had to say the first few days following the fight, and the crude map Benteen drew of the field on the 27th and 28th of June. (on the 27th Benteen toured the field with Martini at his side.)
Try to find a flaw.
What Martini said to Graham, and what he said in his communication with Camp are certainly open to question, but I do not believe in January 1879 he was indulging in either fantasy or self-aggrandizement, but was an honest person trying to communicate honestly. He did give some indication in later years that his testimony was in some measure pressured, but if so, I do not know how. He certainly did Reno no good. Gilbert was fearful of his testimony, as he was the testimony of all the enlisted men and civilians who testified. In his summation a major plea was advising the court they ought ignore the testimony of such people.

[mcaryf]

Hi D O harris

I just double checked the testimony of Martini. He told the Recorder that the Adjutant gave him the written order and told him what to do - he does not speak to Gen Custer. Later in life he claims to have had a conversation instead with Gen Custer who explains to him that the ammunition packs are needed - this is plainly a fabrication and should be disregarded.

Later in testimony to the Recorder he tells that he met Capt Benteen.

The Recorder asks: "what did you do" (no obvious pressure there or difficult English words)

Martini says: "I delivered my despatch and told him what Lt Cook had told me - not to go back if there was any danger and to report to him when my company joined Gen Custer's command. Then Capt Benteen took the despatch read it and put it in his pocket, and gave me a despatch to take to Capt McDougall to bring up the packtrain and keep it well up.

There are then some more questions about what Martini saw of Reno's command and whether he told Benteen anything of it (he had not told him).

Then the questioning (still by the Recorder) returns to the question of taking a despatch to Capt McDougall. Martini explains in some detail that the packtrain was only 150 yds behind Benteen and that McDougall was leading it (actually it was not and McDougall was at the rear).

In later life Martini says this was all wrong, the RCOI misunderstood him, he had never been sent back to the packtrain which was actually a mile or so behind.


I do not know what you make of all this but it does seem to me that Martini was quite unreliable as a witness and it is hard to fathom why except in the case of later claiming to have spoken directly to Custer that might give him some better claim to fame. Why he claimed the RCOI misrepresented him I do not know. I do prefer the second version there since Benteen had already just sent Kanipe back to the packtrain so hardly needed to use another messenger and if it was really only 150 yds behind what was the point?

Regards

Mike

[shatonska]

mcaryf said:

and if it was really only 150 yds behind what was the point?

Regards

Mike

the point is tha Benteen was on a seaside trip not in a fight environment , he was slow , later he realized that and was shocked until the return on reno hill

[Jas. Watson]

But this is getting away from the original point of whether Kanipe was indeed an 'official' messenger or not--and if so; of what, and to whom...and did he indeed deliver.

[Lawtonka]

There is a letter written from McDougal to Kanipe in 1905, apparently a letter of character. It was in the family up until recently when it was sold along with other items in an auction.

In the letter is the following quote:

"Sergeant Knipe ..... was the bearer of General Custer's last order which was to me"

The letter is from and signed by McDougal.

[mcaryf]

Is it not typical of LBH that the letter you quote from McDougall still appears not to resolve the queries. It says he was the bearer but does not say that he delivered it, which of course McDougall should know, and does say that the order came from Gen Custer which in fact McDougall cannot know but only surmise.

We are aware from Benteen that Kanipe (or Knipe) did encounter his column and was sent on to the packtrain. I presume that he must later appear with the packtrain so it would seem most unlikely that he joined the packtrain but failed to deliver the message to someone. The tenor of the message was similar to that of Martini's so it has that going for it as being genuine. Kanipe seems otherwise to have been a good soldier. I would have thought it fair to give him the benefit of the doubt and it does not make any great difference to the actual events except possibly with respect to his own survival.

His story of Indians on the bluffs, whom Custer then persued, is of more interest as a possible factor in determining Custer's actions but the story is not otherwise confirmed. Would Custer have seen the presence of some Indians on those bluffs as potentially threatening snipers against his column, if he just proceeded after Reno, or even that they might be in position to waylay the packtrain?

Regards

Mike

[crzhrs]

I have heard of the McDougal letter and even have seen it in print somewhere on the web.

The question is: when was McDougal lying: when he said he received no orders from Kanipe or when he wrote his letter?

More contradiction again from the LBH . . . !

[Lawtonka]

You can read a copy of the letter in the Custer Myth, I think it is reprinted in there.

I think we can all agree on most of this stuff.....It is as clear as mud.

One thing for sure, Benteen acknowledged seeing him, he surely was on the hilltop, but one thing about the message to Mcdougall,

McDougall stated in his letter that "he bore Custer's last order which was to me" I think that is a pretty stong indication that he delivered it.

He did stay in the Army and achieved the rank of First Sergeant and other statements I have read have produced no negative remarks about him from any of his superiors. Although there were some negative things from his subordinates, but then again, wouldmn't that be kind of natural.....the old Sarge has not always been the favorite person of his subordinates.

If none of this were true, he sure did not escape the fight, he had to face the devil for two days on the hilltop along with the others including the stragglers such as Thompson and Watson from his own company.

[Jas. Watson]

>>>....along with the others including the stragglers such as Thompson and Watson from his own company<<<

Yes, what was it about 'C' Troop? Outside Sergt. Kanipe's 'possible' dereliction (which I don't neccesarily believe), you have the above mentioned Thompson and Watson...and also Fitzgerald and Brennan, all from 'C', and.....no one else.
Was it that 'C' Troop had a fortune teller, or was it maybe that C was last in line and men could more easily 'take a hike'? Heck, there's even a remote chance (very small) that Lieut. Harrington himself 'stepped out' with some men (Pretty Shield's statement about seeing some dead miles away later in the summer--one of whom was a 'soldier chief'). Even Nathan Short of controversial fame was from 'C'.
There seems to be way too many 'ponderables' revolving around 'C' Troop to be coincidental. Does anyone else notice this?

[shatonska]

jasw said:

>>>....along with the others including the stragglers such as Thompson and Watson from his own company<<<

Yes, what was it about 'C' Troop? Outside Sergt. Kanipe's 'possible' dereliction (which I don't neccesarily believe), you have the above mentioned Thompson and Watson...and also Fitzgerald and Brennan, all from 'C', and.....no one else.
Was it that 'C' Troop had a fortune teller, or was it maybe that C was last in line and men could more easily 'take a hike'? Heck, there's even a remote chance (very small) that Lieut. Harrington himself 'stepped out' with some men (Pretty Shield's statement about seeing some dead miles away later in the summer--one of whom was a 'soldier chief'). Even Nathan Short of controversial fame was from 'C'.
There seems to be way too many 'ponderables' revolving around 'C' Troop to be coincidental. Does anyone else notice this?

probably the last company of the line, more possibilities of stay away , a part of it was left on finley ridge while moving on battle ridge because it was the last company, another part went with keogh but had lost men and cohesion so in the crucial moment some tried to escape east
it could fit

[Gumby]

Kanipe stated he received the message from Tom Custer, not George. I don't believe that George even knew of Kanipe being sent back. Two reasons for that belief- 1) Company C was in rear of the column and George was in front. Tom would have had to go back to the rear to find Kanipe. 2) Why would he have needed to send Martini back with virtually the same message?

Martin certainly left the column after Kanipe.

McDougall and Mathey both denied receiving any message but McDougall later admitted that he had. Kanipe's exact message is questionable because he was supposed to tell them to get off of the trail and come straight to Custer. Then Kanipe said that he just fell in with the pack train and his buddies from Co. C. How did he expect Mathey or McDougall to find Custer if he did not lead them?

[Lawtonka]

Kanipe did get his orders from Tom Custer, no doubt about that according to his own words

When the pack train arrived at Reno's Position, Kanipe was in front of the column.

A second messenger would not be unreasonalbe, in case one of them did not get through.

It is interesting that even on the Yellowstone Expedition, Kanipe remained at the supply point/camp

It is interesting that the stragglers were from Company C, but then again, I am surprised there were no more of them due to the exhausted state of the horses as they were really pused beyond normal limits.

That's part of what makes this so interesting

[Gumby]

Nathan Short was not the corpse found on the Rosebud the following month. (See Doug Ellison's "Mystery of the Rosebud.")Thompson's claim that his and Watson's horses fell out was verified by the Arikara scouts who stopped and tried to communicate with him briefly before they continued on with thier stolen ponies. Brennan and some of the others were questionable though. There were several men from each of Custer's five companies that ended up with Reno for some unexplained reason. I mentioned the exact number in Death of a Myth. Some had legitimate reasons, the rest gave no explanation, so it wasn't just Co. C men.