|
Post by Tricia on Apr 6, 2006 8:53:07 GMT -6
All--
This keeps coming up on other threads, but I'm not sure anyone has offered the definitive word on it. Who, exactly gave Kanipe the message for McDougall?
A). GAC B). TWC, acting in his brother's best interests C). OTHER (insert name here)
I'll be interested to see, as there is a bit of confusion about TWC's role with HQ at the time of the battle. If you have any great sources for this, lemme know!
Regards, Leyton McLean
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Apr 6, 2006 9:06:35 GMT -6
Kanipe said Tom Custer gave him the message . . . there was nothing in writing as Martini had which proves he was a legitimate messenger from Custer.
A little hard to understand why a NCO would be sent to deliver a message when there were a number of orderlies to do so. I would think a NCO would be needed to assist their commanding officerss in a battle . . . so was Kanipe really a messenger or was he seeing something that told him I better get out of here?
Mathey stated he never received the message from Kanipe . . . so there is a doubt about the legitimacy of Kanipe as a messenger.
My sources are the COI and Kanipe interview with Camp, which are primary sources. Of course there are authors and historians who put their own spin on it which says Kanipe was or was not a messenger.
|
|
|
Post by custerstillstands on Apr 7, 2006 1:34:08 GMT -6
In fact, I read that McDougall denied having received any message by Kanipe but Mathey said he received some thing. Churchill also stated that a message was brought and everyone knew about it
I've never heard of any controversy about Kanipe's real motive...
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Apr 7, 2006 5:25:47 GMT -6
There are some strange issues associated with the messages. If you read Martini's account in "The Custer Myth" he says that the RCOI report of his evidence is quite wrong wrt him going to McDougall, he says he stayed with Benteen's column. He also says the packs were visible a mile or so away whereas at the RCOI he is reported as saying it was 150yds behind Benteen. When you read the RCOI there is quite a dialogue with Martini about his going on to the packtrain and it would be very hard to explain by his English being poor. Who knows, perhaps he thought he really was supposed to have gone to the train and had not in error, so he made that up at the RCOI (in a private letter Benteen refers to him as dullwitted and unsuitable to be a cavalryman).
Thinking about Kanipe there is a sensible possibility. Let us assume that Tom Custer knew that GAC had sent a message to Benteen to bring up the packs but Tom might have realised that if Benteen had continued as directed then he might not be anywhere near the packs. Tom might not have wished to point out this possible faux pas to his brother so he sends Kanipe on his own initiative to find the packs. If you read Kanipe's account of the message his emphasis is on the ammunition rather than the packtrain as a whole. This could be because Tom had heard of the message to Benteen but did not understand that the purpose was to ensure the safety of the packtrain rather than bringing up the ammo. Now Kanipe arrives before Martini but it is possible he had a faster horse or took a better route. The fact that Kanipe gets there first is, I guess, why Benteen does not send Martini on to the packtrain as well.
The other confusion is whether Kanipe delivers the message to the packtrain. Both officers with the train deny getting the message but they also paused to close up, I guess for mutual defence in hostile territory, so perhaps they felt they had not entirely obeyed the order so would not mention having had it.
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by elisabeth on Apr 7, 2006 5:38:25 GMT -6
Mike, that's an ingenious explanation! One problem, though: Kanipe says he's sent back when they've got to "the far end of the bluffs", while Martini says he goes back from MTC.
I'm sure you're right about Mathey and McDougall, though. A definite bit of CYA going on there ...
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Apr 7, 2006 6:57:46 GMT -6
Hi Elisabeth As I previously said Martini is not necessarily the brightest thing on two legs so any inconsistency in his story as to where he was when sent might be explicable. I also pointed out in my last post, he subsequently decided that most of what he said at the RCOI was entirely misunderstood by the court!
It was after all a strange thing for Custer to have sent a message to Benteen about bringing up the packtrain when he was actually expecting Benteen to be attacking the village from the far side! Perhaps Cook or Custer had a momentary lapse of memory and thought Benteen rather than McDougall was escorting the packtrain! We do otherwise have difficulty in understanding that message - "be quick" versus "bring packs". If it had been addressed directly to McDougall it does make some sense as he might potentially have thought he was to bring just his company or just the ammo and not the whole train.
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by elisabeth on Apr 7, 2006 7:36:29 GMT -6
Mike,
Hmmmm ... There are some suggestions that the plan could have been for Benteen to attack from the far side, but Gibson's version of his orders (in a letter to his wife immediately after, before any need to concoct stories had arisen) was that they were to return to the trail and rejoin the command. But even if we accept the latter, it was odd for Custer to assume that Benteen a) could be found easily by Martini, and b) was close to the packtrain. I incline to the view, myself, that he'd had some sort of visual clue -- dust or whatever -- that Benteen had finished his scout and was back on the trail.
As for Martini: not a towering genius, perhaps, but surely not the mental defective Benteen makes him out to be! That was a bit of Benteen spin, I suspect; plus one gets the impression he was somewhat impatient with "foreigners". (Look how dismissive he is of DeRudio's stories: Mazzini "or some other man, in some other country".) Graham, in The Custer Myth, seems content with his abilities; and the version of events Martini gives on pp. 288-295 seems lucid enough.
When he gets to the famous message, it's interesting that he quotes Custer as saying: "Orderly, I want you to take a message to Colonel Benteen. Ride as fast as you can and tell him to hurry. Tell him it's a big village and I want him to be quick, and to bring the ammunition packs". Now he's unlikely to have total recall of something said to him in a language he was still learning, at a distance of many years -- but if his memory is halfway accurate, it looks as if it's Cooke who throws a spanner in the works. By being excessively helpful and writing it down, he manages to change the meaning. If Benteen had been told "ammunition packs", there'd have been no dilemma, no confusion. Plus Benteen would have understood he was being brought in on the main action, not downgraded to nursemaiding the packtrain. He'd have known exactly what the situation was and what the priorities were.
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Apr 7, 2006 8:09:27 GMT -6
Hi Elisabeth
I think we have to look at what Martini says at two different times and why. At the RCOI he says Custer asks the Adjutant to send a message to Benteen, the Adjutant writes it down and he Martini does not at the time know what the message says. The General then tells him to go as fast as he can and to come back only if it is safe.
Later in the "Custer Myth" account the General spends time explaining the message to Martini including the bit about ammunition packs. I rather imagine that the later version is aggrandising Martini's role and he has added his own embellishment knowing subsequently what the written message actually said but still not necessarily understanding the possible nuances.
I am afraid I think Martini is a pretty flawed witness, if you read what he says in "Custer Myth" about not going to McDougall and try to reconcile it with what he says at RCOI then he appears to be totally unreliable at least in English.
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Apr 7, 2006 8:11:12 GMT -6
Of course there is no one left to corrobborate Martini's testimony.
He also stated to Camp that at the COI he did not speak/understand English very good and everybody misunderstood him.
In 1876 he had been in the US only two years, his English was probably even worse then.
|
|
|
Post by custerstillstands on Apr 7, 2006 8:13:05 GMT -6
But Custer's movements are like Martini said : Reno in front, Custer in extreme right... Sounds correct to me
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Apr 7, 2006 8:17:57 GMT -6
Hi Elisabeth
Replying to your point about Benteen's orders for his leftward movement. What is your source for the suggestion that Benteen was to return to the trail? In "Custer Myth" Benteen's letter to his wife says he got two further orders from Custer both telling him to proceed over various bluffs and the final one saying go on until you reach a valley (The LBH valley?). As far as I was aware Benteen only returned to the trail because the roughness of the country was such that he could not usefully continue in the direction ordered.
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Apr 7, 2006 8:40:54 GMT -6
Actually re-reading Martini's testimony I see in his account the General never even talks to him it is all Adjutant Cook. I really do think this is Martini casting himself as "the last living person to have spoken to Custer" writing his own history here.
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Apr 7, 2006 9:17:02 GMT -6
Mike:
Are you using THE CUSTER MYTH, Camp's Interview, or the COI?
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Apr 7, 2006 9:54:02 GMT -6
Hi Crzhrs
I am comparing his RCOI testimony with what he is reported as saying in "The Custer Myth". RCOI has no direct contact with Custer re the order - it is all via Cook, The Custer Myth has the General explaining the purpose of the order it to him directly.
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by crzhrs on Apr 7, 2006 10:50:42 GMT -6
Mike:
Of course in the COI it could all depend on how the question was asked. Much more retrictions in a court room than being able to "free-wheel" in a interview or letter.
|
|