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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 5, 2006 8:56:18 GMT -6
Hi CSS Well you know the idea of going to the sound of the guns cuts both ways. If we are to beleive the sequence outlined by RA Fox then Custer was sitting on his hill waiting for 20 or so minutes for Benteen without doing very much. Surely he will have heard the heavy and sustained firing coming from Reno's force and then an ominous period of relative silence. Surely should he not have moved his men back to form a junction with the rest of his force or at least to Weir Point where he could have seen what was happening. My only theory as to why he might not have done this is the possibility that he had already got some wounded so movement might have been constrained. However, sending two companies back to observe from Weir Point would still seem to be the sensible option - if they had met Benteen on the way then they could have returned. regards Mike Hi According to Indian testimonies, the volleys were only a part of the encounter. What Godfrey said was perhaps a gallant way to dismiss the rumors that, as a newspaper said rightly in July 1876, Custer was fighting while 7 companies were out of the fight. However, Custer's purpose - I think it's very easy to see it with what we've got today : army testimonies, Indian testimonies, even some archaelogist remarks- Custer had wavered his hat in the direction of Reno to tell him that support would come. As Martini said, Custer expected that Benteen would come quickly and attack the center. He said that to all his officers before sending Reno in full attack. Custer was amazed that Benteen was still at large. He then decided to go toward Medicine Tail Ford to atttract the Indians and to support Reno, who had to hold his position in the timbers. However, after 30 minutes of battle, Reno ran away. And Benteen was going slowly. They put down Custer's plan. It's a B--T--AL
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Post by mcaryf on Apr 5, 2006 9:57:14 GMT -6
Hi CSS
Well it is an interesting idea that Custer should send Benteen off into unscouted unknown country and have any view as to where/when he might turn up. He then sends a courier with a message that Benteen is to bring the Packs with him which must add considerable delay to the possible time at which he might arrive.
Custer seems to have made no effort or at least no successful effort to send any message to Reno to coordinate his activities with whatever Custer then intended. We are aware that Custer was told that the Indians were unexpectedly coming out to meet Reno but we do not know how he intended his plans to be changed as a result of this.
Most Indian and archaeological evidence points to Custer making a demonstration and a recce rather than a serious attack at MTC Ford. Theories and some evidence indicate that he made a further recce to North Ford apparently still leaving Reno effectively unsupported. He returns to LSH and then seems to do nothing until the Indians attack him in overwhelming force.
My question, which you did not answer, was why he chose to stay there in a poor defensive position rather than seeking to reunite his command. He could see as far as Weir Point from LSH and would know that Benteen must still be some distance off as he would be visible if he had passed Weir Point. We know why Reno/Benteen did not move as they were both waiting for the Packs (as per Custer's directive) and having to consider their wounded. It took between 4 and 6 troopers to transport each wounded man, this would be a serious issue for a commanding officer and was one for Reno and Benteen. When they eventually set off with the Packs, the party with the wounded under Capt Moylan were having severe difficulties in keeping up and this could have been a major issue if they had set off earlier, against orders without the Packs, as you seem to think they should have.
Napoleon said to his Marshalls - ask anything of me but time. I find it hard to understand why Custer seems to have let critical minutes pass by without actually doing anything positive. The only excuse I can see is that he too had to concern himself with some wounded men. Unfortunately as a result of the delay they and the rest of his command eventually became dead men.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Tricia on Apr 5, 2006 11:33:27 GMT -6
CSS--
Do you have a primary source for your comment: "Custer was amazed that Benteen was still at large?" Don't quote Sklenar. Who, among GAC's battalion, was able to write that down?
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 5, 2006 11:49:10 GMT -6
How can anyone expect to decipher hat waving as a message to Reno that support would be coming? How could anyone expect to recognize anyone from that distance?
Wouldn't it have been better if Custer sent a messenger to Reno telling him that support would be coming soon rather than waving hats?
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 5, 2006 13:19:20 GMT -6
Custer actually, according to Herendeen, told Reno that support was coming before he left and Reno admitted himself that he was expecting support by the flank.
Custer's orders, McLean, are clear : "BE QUICK" It's the second order after Kanipe's first order and it obviously means that Custer was amazed of Benteen's delay. He wondered why Benteen wasn't there. So he sent an other order with the same meaning : BE QUICK
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 5, 2006 13:22:49 GMT -6
We know Custer told Reno that he would be supported, but it seems odd that Custer'waving his hat would be a signal that he was supporting Reno.
If that was the case, then Custer never supported Reno.
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Post by mcaryf on Apr 5, 2006 13:45:24 GMT -6
Hi CSS
The last orders Custer gave personally to Benteen and McDougall of the Packtrain had them travelling at right angles to each other. The orders supposedly sent by Kanipe were to McDougall not Benteen although Kanipe was told if he happened to see Benteen to tell him to come on quick. Custer cannot necessarily have expected Kanipe to meet Benteen so he sends a second messenger Martini specifically to find Benteen and that message has the urgency on the Packs (mentioned twice). Thus your statement of two sets of orders sent to Benteen to come on quick is quite misleading. The one order specifically directed to Benteen emphasised the bringing of the Packs. This would obviously slow Benteen down as you must admit so what is your explanation for it.
Can I please direct your attention to the point I have already raised with you twice about just what Custer was doing waiting near LSH when he could see that Benteen was not even in sight and when he himself could still move to improve the chances of a junction. By then he knew the size of the Indian village and that his command could be destroyed in detail if it stayed separate, how can you justify his obvious failure to even try to reunite his force?
Regards
Mike
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 5, 2006 13:46:33 GMT -6
Hi
Well it is an interesting idea that Custer should send Benteen off into unscouted unknown country and have any view as to where/when he might turn up. He then sends a courier with a message that Benteen is to bring the Packs with him which must add considerable delay to the possible time at which he might arrive.
Custer was looking to a possible satellite village around the area, because on June 22 he had found some different village on the Indian trail. When he saw the big village, he knew that the satellite village - like in the Washita - was most probably not possible anymore. The Indians weren't fleeing, so he decided to attack at once. If Benteen hadn't delay, he would have been with Custer much earlier.
Custer seems to have made no effort or at least no successful effort to send any message to Reno to coordinate his activities with whatever Custer then intended. We are aware that Custer was told that the Indians were unexpectedly coming out to meet Reno but we do not know how he intended his plans to be changed as a result of this.
His plan didn't change. It WAS actually the purpose of Reno's attack to attract the warriors, and as Gerard said, no more than 150 warriors were attacking Reno's line until he was in the woods. Custer expected Reno to attract the warriors (remember that Reno's charge was actually to "charge" and not to "charge the village" as Reno said in 1879 to cover his ass. It was to "engage the Indians" as Gerard or Herendeen, and they were near Custer when he told his orders). Reno had to hold and he could.
Most Indian and archaeological evidence points to Custer making a demonstration and a recce rather than a serious attack at MTC Ford. Theories and some evidence indicate that he made a further recce to North Ford apparently still leaving Reno effectively unsupported. He returns to LSH and then seems to do nothing until the Indians attack him in overwhelming force.
Going near Medicine Tail Ford IS actually a support, because Indians were threatened by Custer in their flank and Reno in their front. Custer was waiting for Benteen, who was late, and knew that Reno needed support. Then he attracted the warriors at Medicine Tail Ford and supported Reno. However, he didn't know that Reno had already run away.
My question, which you did not answer, was why he chose to stay there in a poor defensive position rather than seeking to reunite his command.
In my opinion, he didn't know that Reno was fleeing. He was waiting for Benteen and when he was at Medicine Tail Ford, Indians were only few. He was probably believing that Reno was still engaged, because the warriors were not in the village anymore. He still thought that the battle plan (attack in several directions and capture of noncombattants) was still ongoing.
He could see as far as Weir Point from LSH and would know that Benteen must still be some distance off as he would be visible if he had passed Weir Point. We know why Reno/Benteen did not move as they were both waiting for the Packs (as per Custer's directive) and having to consider their wounded.
Are you sure ? They were waiting for the pack train ? According to Martini, Davern and many others - see RCOI - the pack train was following Benteen. Even the Indians, Red Feather and many others, see Michno - said that "mules with packs were following the soldiers" Reno's wounded were only 10 people, and others came up on the hills, but it wasn't still any point to abandon 210 living soldiers and their commander.
It took between 4 and 6 troopers to transport each wounded man, this would be a serious issue for a commanding officer and was one for Reno and Benteen. When they eventually set off with the Packs, the party with the wounded under Capt Moylan were having severe difficulties in keeping up and this could have been a major issue if they had set off earlier, against orders without the Packs, as you seem to think they should have.
Again, it's not relevant in my point of view because the pack train was already there and the wounded could be brought with some men like the pack train was. The battle plan was the major concern
Napoleon said to his Marshalls - ask anything of me but time. I find it hard to understand why Custer seems to have let critical minutes pass by without actually doing anything positive.
He was waiting for Benteen. When he realized that Benteen wasn't in sight without reason (a delay which cannot be excused, Historians Utley and Gray agreed like many many others), he decided to finally support Reno on his own by attracting the warriors.
The only excuse I can see is that he too had to concern himself with some wounded men. Unfortunately as a result of the delay they and the rest of his command eventually became dead men.
Reno's and Benteen's betrayal was that Reno didn't obey his orders to engage warriors more than 30 minutes without and that Benteen ignored orders to move quickly. When they were on the hills, they still didn't move toward Custer despite the fact that they were 2/3 of the regiment. 380 men waiting on a hill to take care of 10 wounded (and others who came later and later, but the some wounded were hiding near the river and came later during the day, even in the night or on June 25) while 210 men are fighting the foes, it's not normal.
Just see (LBH battle, June 25 1876, 3.20 p.m. to 6.20 p.m.): Reno - 16% of the battle Benteen-McDougall 2%
66 % of the regiment fought 18 % of the battle.
the rest, under Custer, fought 88% of the battle.
Regards
Mike
Best regards
CSS
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 5, 2006 13:48:22 GMT -6
We know Custer told Reno that he would be supported, but it seems odd that Custer'waving his hat would be a signal that he was supporting Reno. If that was the case, then Custer never supported Reno. Threatening the enemy by the flank like Custer did in MTF is a support.
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Post by Tricia on Apr 5, 2006 14:19:28 GMT -6
Custer actually, according to Herendeen, told Reno that support was coming before he left and Reno admitted himself that he was expecting support by the flank. Custer's orders, McLean, are clear : "BE QUICK" It's the second order after Kanipe's first order and it obviously means that Custer was amazed of Benteen's delay. He wondered why Benteen wasn't there. So he sent an other order with the same meaning : BE QUICK The first message was for the pack train--and it is under some discussion whether it was sent by GAC himself, or rather by TWC, acting independently of his brother. The second was for Benteen specifically. However, there is absolutely NO--NONE--ZIP evidence for your "claim (because that is all it is)" to Custer's emotional state at that point. YOU JUST CANNOT PUT WORDS INTO A PERSON'S HEAD IN A SCHOLARLY WORK--IF YOU WANT YOUR WORK TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. I'm surprised and flabbergasted that you haven't been taught that at University. Seems you're writing creative non-fiction ( A Million Little Pieces) and the worst kind, as you are purporting your book to be History. LMC
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Post by mcaryf on Apr 5, 2006 16:23:23 GMT -6
Hi CSS, My replies to various of your points:
If Benteen hadn't delay, he would have been with Custer much earlier.
Actually if Benteen had not used his initiative to give up the unnecessary mission that Custer had given him and arrived much quicker than he might have, then Reno's command would probably have been destroyed as well. If you read the report of Custer's own movement after separating from Reno you will see that he too stopped to water his horses, it was what any sensible commander would do.
Custer expected Reno to attract the warriors (remember that Reno's charge was actually to "charge" and not to "charge the village" as Reno said in 1879 to cover his ass. It was to "engage the Indians" as Gerard or Herendeen, and they were near Custer when he told his orders). Reno had to hold and he could.
Funnily enough Reno did continue to "charge" the Indians but he chose to charge the ones that had got behind him! So if you think the order was just to charge Indians rather than the village then this is what Reno did! (This is an ironic rather than serious point!)
Going near Medicine Tail Ford IS actually a support, because Indians were threatened by Custer in their flank and Reno in their front. Custer was waiting for Benteen, who was late, and knew that Reno needed support. Then he attracted the warriors at Medicine Tail Ford and supported Reno. However, he didn't know that Reno had already run away.
Actually if Reno had still been in the timber, as you suggest, and all Custer did was put in a brief appearance at the Ford then he would not have drawn off the warriors from Reno as Reno would still be threatening the village. Thus Custer's support would have been pretty worthless if Reno had still been where you want him to be.
In my opinion, he didn't know that Reno was fleeing. He was waiting for Benteen and when he was at Medicine Tail Ford, Indians were only few. He was probably believing that Reno was still engaged, because the warriors were not in the village anymore. He still thought that the battle plan (attack in several directions and capture of noncombattants) was still ongoing.
CSS, you must recognise the absurdity of this. If Reno is still fighting on the valley floor and Benteen comes by he is pretty well bound to go to where that fighting is. Neither he nor Martini would know where Custer was by then and the scene of any apparent action would be where Benteen had to go. Thus even if Reno had stayed in the timber, Custer does not get reinforced. In fact the only possibilities that Benteen does come are (a) if Reno is already destroyed on the valley floor or (b) Reno has withdrawn to Reno Hill or somewhere similar and can potentially defend himself and the packtrain there. The latter case implies the sort of delay that actually did happen so reinforces my argument that Custer should have moved back to Weir Point.
Are you sure ? They were waiting for the pack train ? According to Martini, Davern and many others - see RCOI - the pack train was following Benteen. Even the Indians, Red Feather and many others, see Michno - said that "mules with packs were following the soldiers" Reno's wounded were only 10 people, and others came up on the hills, but it wasn't still any point to abandon 210 living soldiers and their commander.
The testimony at the RCOI is quite mixed about how rapidly the packtrain came up, you have obviously selected those that suggest it was very soon after Benteen. I think part of the confusion would have been that the packtrain was somewhat strung out. A couple of ammunition mules were brought on quickly with others some way behind. Custer's instruction to Benteen can only be interpreted as meaning he is to provide added protection to the whole train as at the time he sent it Custer was in no particular need of ammo. Thus he has to ensure the train as a whole is protected. With Indians in large numbers in the general vicinity Benteen can hardly desert most of the train just because there has been some firing in the distance.
Again, it's not relevant in my point of view because the pack train was already there and the wounded could be brought with some men like the pack train was. The battle plan was the major concern.
I am sorry CSS but it is relevant, the speed of the whole Benteen/Reno force would be restricted to the speed of the slowest components thus even if they had set out earlier, transporting the wounded would have meant they would never have got to Custer in time. The only way the disaster is averted is if Custer moves to them but unaccountably he fails to do so. I ask again what was Custer doing and this is your answer:
He was waiting for Benteen. When he realized that Benteen wasn't in sight without reason (a delay which cannot be excused, Historians Utley and Gray agreed like many many others), he decided to finally support Reno on his own by attracting the warriors.
I am sorry I do not understand what theory of Custer's possible movement you are suggesting here. Is this another trip to attack the village? What evidence do you have for this and how does it result in Custer's men dying on Battle Ridge rather than down at the Ford?
Reno's and Benteen's betrayal was that Reno didn't obey his orders to engage warriors more than 30 minutes without and that Benteen ignored orders to move quickly. When they were on the hills, they still didn't move toward Custer despite the fact that they were 2/3 of the regiment. 380 men waiting on a hill to take care of 10 wounded (and others who came later and later, but the some wounded were hiding near the river and came later during the day, even in the night or on June 25) while 210 men are fighting the foes, it's not normal.
Just see (LBH battle, June 25 1876, 3.20 p.m. to 6.20 p.m.): Reno - 16% of the battle Benteen-McDougall 2%
66 % of the regiment fought 18 % of the battle.
the rest, under Custer, fought 88% of the battle.
As with much of your argument you selectively pick facts. In fact the battle lasted through another whole day. Unfortunately Custer's errors meant that he and a substantial part of his command were no longer around to participate and only contributed to about 3 hours out of 20 or so i.e. 15%. Reno may not have given a very heroic display but at least he was sensible enough to know that he needed to go looking for other parts of the regiment since Custer obviously was not coming to him. A pity that Custer did not realise the same truth before it was too late.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Tricia on Apr 5, 2006 16:27:48 GMT -6
We know Custer told Reno that he would be supported, but it seems odd that Custer'waving his hat would be a signal that he was supporting Reno. If that was the case, then Custer never supported Reno. Threatening the enemy by the flank like Custer did in MTF is a support. CSS-- You need to read Fred Wagner's article in the Winter LBHA Research Review: he does a wonderful job in dissecting Custer's true purpose at MTC. Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by shan on Apr 5, 2006 16:28:01 GMT -6
a little while back mcaryf made a good point about the possibility that the sound of guns was heard from either end of the field. If, as I believe many, if not most of Reno and Benteen's men heard gunfire from the Custer end of the field, then Custer must have been aware of sustained firing coming from the direction he would have expected Reno to have been in. Given that he was at first lightly engaged, he would have likely also have become aware of that firing diminishing, and if that didn't worry him, then the sight of large numbers of warriors returning down river, warriors who were obviously not fleeing by virtue of the fact that they were hell bent on getting at him and his men. Why then, didn't he return to Weir Point to see if the rest of his command needed any assistance? there were plenty of reasons to fear the worst. The village was far larger than expected, and the temper of the warriors was the opposite of that which had been expected, which was that they would up and flee if the weren't contained in time. He was stretched and he knew it, hence the messages. Why then didn't he try and re-unite as any sensible commander would? He didn't because he couldn't. Having moved to Calhoun hill, I believe he already found he had his hands full and knew he was in trouble. the more I read about the so called move to the North Ford the less inclined I am to believe it. There is a tendency for a number of people to wish to string the battle out a deal longer than I believe it took. What sense does it make for Custer to sit on his Butt for 20/30 minutes on Cemetery ridge when all around him the command was falling apart? No, I believe the underlying feel when gets when you read the Indian accounts as a whole, is that once the command got to Calhoun ridge the collapse was fairly rapid. One last thing on another point raised in another thread. Many contributors refer to the possibility of Custer being wounded at some point, usually MTF, and that much of what followed can be put down to that. But all those who saw the body and describe the wounds infer that either of them would have killed him almost immediately. None talk, or describe any injury that could be described as a wound. Shan
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 10:48:52 GMT -6
Custer actually, according to Herendeen, told Reno that support was coming before he left and Reno admitted himself that he was expecting support by the flank. Custer's orders, McLean, are clear : "BE QUICK" It's the second order after Kanipe's first order and it obviously means that Custer was amazed of Benteen's delay. He wondered why Benteen wasn't there. So he sent an other order with the same meaning : BE QUICK The first message was for the pack train--and it is under some discussion whether it was sent by GAC himself, or rather by TWC, acting independently of his brother. The second was for Benteen specifically. However, there is absolutely NO--NONE--ZIP evidence for your "claim (because that is all it is)" to Custer's emotional state at that point. YOU JUST CANNOT PUT WORDS INTO A PERSON'S HEAD IN A SCHOLARLY WORK--IF YOU WANT YOUR WORK TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. I'm surprised and flabbergasted that you haven't been taught that at University. Seems you're writing creative non-fiction ( A Million Little Pieces) and the worst kind, as you are purporting your book to be History. LMC First add something to the discussion or shut up with your disgusting arrogant speeches... Who do you think you are ? Stay in your place, professor. Custer sent two orders with the "be quick" sentence, one with Kanipe (TWC told him "Tell Benteen, be quick") and the other a written message. The same order in a little time highly suggests that Custer was angry about Benteen's delay or concerned about the delay.
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 10:49:37 GMT -6
Threatening the enemy by the flank like Custer did in MTF is a support. CSS-- You need to read Fred Wagner's article in the Winter LBHA Research Review: he does a wonderful job in dissecting Custer's true purpose at MTC. Regards, Leyton McLean And it is ? Custer attracted warriors on him and it was the best way, according to all military rules, to support Reno
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