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Post by Tricia on Apr 6, 2006 11:03:41 GMT -6
CSS--
All it means is that GAC sent a second message, specifically for Benteen. But as "q" noted on another thread, the second part of the message referred to the "pacs," which to me, convolutes the "be quick" demand. Speaking for myself and probably a few others, I think it is best to look at the LBH unemotionally, rather than getting one's knickers tied in a knot because of some lovelorn attachment to a man who's been dead for 130 years.
And as for your apparent disgust for my calling you on rampant author intrusion, I'm only trying to make your writing more professional. I usually charge per page for that kind of advice. Come on, you don't want to be laughed out of town upon the book's release, do you? And yeah, I did teach college classes for a while ...
Regards, LMC
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 11:13:44 GMT -6
Actually if Benteen had not used his initiative to give up the unnecessary mission that Custer had given him and arrived much quicker than he might have, then Reno's command would probably have been destroyed as well. If you read the report of Custer's own movement after separating from Reno you will see that he too stopped to water his horses, it was what any sensible commander would do. No unnecessary mission. Custer had to know if other satellite village were around. What you know today wasn't what Custer knew at the time. He had to be sure that no one was around, like it was the case in 1868 after kicking Black Kettle's ass.Funnily enough Reno did continue to "charge" the Indians but he chose to charge the ones that had got behind him! So if you think the order was just to charge Indians rather than the village then this is what Reno did! (This is an ironic rather than serious point!) Reno had to charge to make some noise and then to hold his position. When he stopped his charge, nobody was in sight according to Porter and others. He was just applying what Custer told him : begin the battle (according to Gerard) Reno hold his position only 30 minutes and it wasn't a rout outside the timber but a complete, dishonorable rout.Actually if Reno had still been in the timber, as you suggest, and all Custer did was put in a brief appearance at the Ford then he would not have drawn off the warriors from Reno as Reno would still be threatening the village. Thus Custer's support would have been pretty worthless if Reno had still been where you want him to be. It is the point, here ! Custer threatened the village as well as Reno. It was a valuable support ! Indians had to divide themselves after having the schock to be attacked in two location (some witnesses said that they thought soldiers were millions - Short Bull - or thousands - Runs the Enemy) Psychological and military advantage, here. The best way to support an unit is to attack the enemy in his flank. The enemy must divide itself.CSS, you must recognise the absurdity of this. If Reno is still fighting on the valley floor and Benteen comes by he is pretty well bound to go to where that fighting is. Neither he nor Martini would know where Custer was by then and the scene of any apparent action would be where Benteen had to go. No absurdity here. Benteen had to follow Custer's trail and his specific orders were BE QUICK. He had to go toward Custer. Nothing in Custer's orders suggested that he should go elsewhere.The testimony at the RCOI is quite mixed about how rapidly the packtrain came up, you have obviously selected those that suggest it was very soon after Benteen. I think part of the confusion would have been that the packtrain was somewhat strung out. A couple of ammunition mules were brought on quickly with others some way behind. Yes, and if you see Custer's orders, the packs were these extra ammunition. It's what Custer wanted. Benteen was on Reno Hill with the packs and he didn't do anything else. He didn't go toward Custer nor did Reno.Custer's instruction to Benteen can only be interpreted as meaning he is to provide added protection to the whole train as at the time he sent it Custer was in no particular need of ammo. Thus he has to ensure the train as a whole is protected. With Indians in large numbers in the general vicinity Benteen can hardly desert most of the train just because there has been some firing in the distance. I don't think so. Custer expected a hard fight after seeing that the Indians weren't fleeing but were in a unique location and were standing on their ground. Custer wanted anything to be ok (Benteen's men, ammunition) before the big battle. By going down toward Medicine Tail Ford, Custer was also protecting the pack train : he was attracting the warriors and letting Benteen's way (and the pack train) clean of Indians. Indian forces had to attack Custer, who was threatening the village and couldn't do anything against Benteen and the packtrain.I am sorry CSS but it is relevant, the speed of the whole Benteen/Reno force would be restricted to the speed of the slowest components thus even if they had set out earlier, transporting the wounded would have meant they would never have got to Custer in time. They spent 1h30 on Reno hill !I am sorry I do not understand what theory of Custer's possible movement you are suggesting here. Is this another trip to attack the village? What evidence do you have for this and how does it result in Custer's men dying on Battle Ridge rather than down at the Ford? Ok, see this map.
The Indian village isn't right, in fact the village was only in the middle of the map, there were no teepees elsewhere. The village was 1.5 mile long, from the river loop to Deep Coulee (here it states "Gall's Approach)
You have Benteen coming from the extreme right of the map, with the pack train (extra ammunition) just behind him.
Indian forces are in the village.
Custer went in Medicine Tail Coulee and near the ford, in the middle of the village. The Indians were surprised.
What Custer thought, and it's obvious if you see what he did and what was his plan (according to Martini), was that
Reno hold the timber. Indians attack him but, as Indians said, it was hard to even shoot soldiers in the timber. As Gibbon or RCOI recorder Lee said, Reno's position in the timber was great for defense.
Benteen went from the right of the map, passed Reno Hill until Medicine Tail Coulee, with ammunition.
Custer divides the Indian forces by threatening the village in Medicine Tail Coulee. Indians, who are still fighting Reno, have to be divided to deal with the two threats.
Then you have a way without Indians for Benteen and the pack train, who can quickly join the command.
You have Indians surprised and who have to deal with what they hate to deal, two attacks, one by the flank, one by the front.
When Benteen arrives, he can still threaten the village while Custer's forces (some of them) capture the civilians and put an other pressure on the morale of the warriors.
The day is carried.
But nothing happened because Benteen never showed up and Reno didn't hold his position. See my signature...
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 11:16:05 GMT -6
CSS-- All it means is that GAC sent a second message, specifically for Benteen. But as "q" noted on another thread, the second part of the message referred to the "pacs," which to me, convolutes the "be quick" demand. Speaking for myself and probably a few others, I think it is best to look at the LBH unemotionally, rather than getting one's knickers tied in a knot because of some lovelorn attachment to a man who's been dead for 130 years. And as for your apparent disgust for my calling you on rampant author intrusion, I'm only trying to make your writing more professional. I usually charge per page for that kind of advice. Come on, you don't want to be laughed out of town upon the book's release, do you? And yeah, I did teach college classes for a while ... Regards, LMC LBH requires to study what Custer did and to understand what he had in mind, and to see how it was/wasn't logical. It's not fiction. It's important to understand what he had in mind and what his orders and his movements could tell us. I don't need your teaching, never asked for, and, eventually, never want to have it in my whole life. Thanks for looking for an other student.
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Post by Tricia on Apr 6, 2006 11:19:30 GMT -6
I don't see how GAC "threatened" the village with just two companies at MTC ...
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Post by Tricia on Apr 6, 2006 11:24:58 GMT -6
But you cannot tell us what is in GAC's mind without primary sources to back it up. You CAN tell us his battle plan or of his actions, but leave your tendency for the rank, emotional stuff to the novelist. As EL Doctorow once said, "The historian can tell us what happened. The novelist can tell us how it felt."
Any argument you make regarding your rights to stick emotional content into a dead man's head just redefines you as the immature "historian" you still are.
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 11:28:46 GMT -6
The problem with you, "professor", is that you are constantly making comments about others. Don't you realize that I don't care at all about what you think, how you are, what you did in your last 60 years... I don't care. I don't care of what you think and of what you like. It makes me completely indifferent.
Custer's orders are not emotional things, it's military matter. Custer seemed to be angry or concerned about Benteen's delay because two orders in a little time is a proof that something was happened in his mind about Benteen. He was concerned about it.
For every other matter, your personnal matter, I don't care and you can take all your arrogant speeches [remaining portion deleted].
No, CSS, you can take your arrogance and leave. You may return when you are ready to discuss matters as an adult. Be gone! -- DM
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 11:29:15 GMT -6
I don't see how GAC "threatened" the village with just two companies at MTC ... Ask the Indians... Everyone was affraid of what they thought it was a charge or a full attack
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 6, 2006 11:35:16 GMT -6
Custer's command of 5 companies could not get into the village, let alone cross the river. How could anyone expect Reno's 3 companies to do any better.
The army's fatal belief of Indians running cost them at the LBH. The warriors, including the "hostiles" which was the army's intention, were hard-core fighters and were not going to run.
The warriors did not run when Reno attacked . . . they held their ground waiting for Reno's next moves, when he faltered, the warriors responded and boldly attacked, just like they boldly attacked Crook at the Rosebud. When Custer attacked, the Indians did not run, but countered. Custer did what he could but the Indians countered him also.
Custer found the wrong camp at the wrong time. This wasn't Black Kettle's village but Crazy Horse's, Sitting Bull's, He Dog's, Crow King, Gall, White Bull's Wolf Tooth's, and many other Indians who were not going to run.
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 11:38:18 GMT -6
Custer never attempted to cross the river to attack the village.
And there was only 10 Cheyennes warriors at the gait...
Indians were surprised twice, had troubles to overcome Reno until he himself ran away, shot most of their own warriros, were surprised by every Custer's move including his charge near Deep Ravine... Nothing really great here.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 6, 2006 11:49:41 GMT -6
If Custer never attempted to cross the river what was his intentions?
Indians were surprised by every Custer move? How come Custer lost . . . please explain that.
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 11:55:18 GMT -6
Custer wanted to divide the Indian forces by threatening the village in Medicine Tail Coulee.
Indians, who would still be fighting Reno, would have to be divided to deal with the two threats.
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Post by q on Apr 6, 2006 11:55:20 GMT -6
mcaryf~ "why (did) he (Custer) chose to stay there in a poor defensive position rather than seeking to reunite his command.?
I think that many of the warriors had rode between Custer's position at Calhoun and Weir peak. In several accounts Curley made comments about the number of warriors advancing towards medicine tail ford while Custer was attempting to ford it. Lt. Bradley who debriefed Curley had this to say. "When they reached the river, the Indians concealed in the underbrush on the opposite bank, opened fire on the troops. Here a part of the command was dismounted and thrown forward toward the river and returned the indian fire.... During this, warriors were seen riding out of the village by the hundreds....the indians had crossed the river below in immense numbers and began to appear on his right flank and rear; he had proceeded but a few hundred yards in this direction, when it became necessary to renew the fight with the indians who had crossed the river. When Custer withdrew from the ford, he proceeded downriver for some distance and then struck out for higher ground...directly to the southeast point of the battlefield. Before they got to this point the indians were in front and in the ravines on both sides, and a strong force of indians was coming up in the rear."
In one of Camp's interviews Camp interpreted it this way; "It appeared to Curley here (at medicine tail ford) that Custer would charge across into the village, but the west bank was thick with dismounted Sioux, and back in the village hundreds of mounted ones were coming up... Curley thought it would be necessary for Custer to retreat, and he did so, going downstream and quartering back upon a high ridge."
For years these accounts have been confused at to what happened, not only after medicine tail ford, but at medicine tail ford as well, and still are. Various people, authors and novices alike, try to sort through these words to find the answers. I think one thing is clear from it all though. That by the time Custer and his men had reached Calhoun Hill, the countryside between Calhoun and Weir Peak was literally crawling with indians, and he couldn't get back.
In another interview Curley speaking of Bouyers wounds he said that Tom Custer came to them at that time and told them to leave, and that Custer was looking for a place to make a stand. This was at or near Calhoun Hill. The evidence suggests that he couldn't get back because of the number of warriors between his position and Reno Hill.
While some people tend not to rely upon Curleys statements. I think there's alot of truth in them. And one of those truths was; that Custer, once he turned and went downstream from medicine tail ford, cooked his own goose!
Custerstillstands:
Custer never attempted to cross the river to attack the village.
And there was only 10 Cheyennes warriors at the gait...
Curley's statments differ from those of the warriors. I personally don't know why Curley would lie about this, do you? The warriors did have reason to lie didn't they? And I believe that they did.
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 12:01:39 GMT -6
The warriors said that they expected defeat when Custer arrived on MTF, I really don't know what's great for them about this statement
White Cow Bull and Bobtailed Horse said that some Cheyennes, a little team, was on the gait and was shooting, but the shooting of the soldiers was very hard and the Indians forces were still in Reno's area.
Custer was not impressed by a few Cheyennes warriors with bows and rifles. It was not his intend to attack the village.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 6, 2006 12:01:53 GMT -6
Custer didn't cross the river because he couldn't. He was repulsed by Indians and forced to higher ground. The Indians put up enough fire to keep Custer's command from crossing the village and entering the village.
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Post by custerstillstands on Apr 6, 2006 12:02:53 GMT -6
"In one of Camp's interviews Camp interpreted it this way; "It appeared to Curley here (at medicine tail ford) that Custer would charge across into the village, but the west bank was thick with dismounted Sioux, and back in the village hundreds of mounted ones were coming up..."
When Custer was on Battle Ridge, Indian forces were still in the Reno's area. As Two Moon said, the village was empty and he was very concerned about what Custer would do with only a dozen warriors against him at the gait.
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