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Post by Tricia on Feb 28, 2006 17:31:20 GMT -6
Given the facts as they are, and no miracles from beyond, was the loss of Custer's battalion the best case scenario when it comes to the defeat at LBH? In the face of an overwhelming Indian victory, could the results have been worse? Better? How?
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 28, 2006 17:58:42 GMT -6
If Benteen had gone straight to Custer, Benteen would have more than likely been taken out, leaving Reno and the pack train vulnerable.
With Reno not in full control of his faculties (putting it mildly) I doubt there would be many survivors of the entire 7th, thus leaving the Indians in full charge of all their weapons and ammo.
They may have been very inclinced to take on Terry's command with his far less number of troopers and possibly inflicted heavy losses to his command also.
In an ironic way, Custer's defeat saved the rest of the 7th and possibly Terry.
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Post by elisabeth on Mar 1, 2006 0:52:40 GMT -6
Nice idea.
One other option: Custer realises early that the odds are overwhelming, and decides to fight his way back to the nearest high ground to make a stand. It's another buffalo hunt, but he and elements of the five companies make it through to join Reno/Benteen/packs -- abandoning their wounded en route. The entire regiment is penned up for two days, just as Reno was. Humiliating defeat for the 7th; Custer vilified in the press, court-martialled and dismissed; regiment disbanded in disgrace.
Or another: Custer sees the collapse of the right wing, and skedaddles north with his two remaining companies to join Terry. (Just as Benteen/Reno suspected he had.) He then has to explain himself. It's another Major Elliott scandal. He may manage to talk his way out of it -- "live to fight another day" etc. -- but it's a shadow on his career. Benteen writes to the newspapers again, a la Washita. Controversy rages. The affair drags on for years. Custer demands a Court of Inquiry to clear his name. He is whitewashed and damned with faint praise. He lives out the rest of his career, embittered and tainted, in some remote outpost on the edge of the Arctic circle, in charge of counting paperclips or whatever ...
Either way, more people survive; but it's still not a happy outcome.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 29, 2006 14:51:25 GMT -6
Elizabeth, Your second scenerio was the exact one I was going to write when I first started reading the thread--I have often thought of that. But on another note, I do not believe there was any way Benteen could have gotten to Custer in time, certainly not to do any good at all--no matter what he did...and absolutely not with the packs. It would have just been a bigger casualty list is all.
Jas.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Mar 29, 2006 16:43:38 GMT -6
Elisabeth -- You really need to write some screenplays. You have the gift!
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Post by elisabeth on Mar 30, 2006 2:46:01 GMT -6
Thank you!
If only ...
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 30, 2006 3:22:21 GMT -6
Having recently read the debate between WA Graham and Capt Carter is there not a question of what might have happened if Reno had stayed in the timber? Was it defensible? How much did the warrior movement to Custer from Reno account for his total loss? What happens (a) if Benteen goes to Reno (b) goes to Custer (c) finds a position of his own from which to threaten another line of attack into the Village. Any delay in the big attack on Custer might give time for Custer to decide to retrace his steps towards Reno so he is now on top of Reno Hill and the regiment somehow manages to rally there.
If the Regiment was still reasonably intact, albeit with substantial losses, and somehow holding out through the 26th, is not Terry now the villain for only arriving on the 27th? The press line might be Custer's brave attack on the 25th pinned the Indians in situ waiting for Terry who fails to show up on the 26th and hence the Indians escape. Custer is now the hero who should have been the commander of the whole expedition, Custer for Pesident!
I guess it might depend on whether you think Custer as President was a best case scenario!
Regards
Mike
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 30, 2006 9:04:37 GMT -6
There was no definate time for Terry to show up. There has been talk about a June 26 rendezvous but that has been questioned for quite a while.
Also Terry expected some message from Custer regarding Tullock's Creek. Custer decided not to send Herendeen because he determined there were no Indians there as had been thought. However, Custer should have sent some message to Terry advising him of a change in plans and the sign of a large force of Indians now observed. If Terry had been notified he may have sped up his advance and arrived sooner. That may not have altered the outcome of the LBH but Terry should have been sent the new info.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 30, 2006 9:24:42 GMT -6
As I understand it Terry had no opportunity to speed his advance as he had set off on an unfortunate route and his infantry were exhausted with all the hills and rough terrain in the very hot weather.
Regards
Mike
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Post by bubbabod on Mar 30, 2006 10:30:48 GMT -6
It seems that a charge into the village usually worked, as the warriors would fight it off while the civilians would head for the hills. It didn't in this case because Reno was (a) either a lousy leader, (b) these Indians, fresh from their victory over Crook weren't in a fleeing mood, (c) there were just too many Indians. I've often wondered if Benteen and his men had been with Reno during the charge, would it have turned out differently? Or were there still just too many fighting kinda Indians there? I've also always in my mind placed part of the blame on Crook's not getting word through to Custer or Terry that he'd got his ass whupped and wouldn't be joining them. Yeah, I know, it's rough terrain, maybe he couldn't find them. Well, he had a couple hundred Indian scouts with him; I've gotta think he coulda gotten word through. Or at the very least, he could have sent his wounded on to Goose Creek, loaded up what ammo and supplies he could and continued on. Instead he headed to Sheridan and caught about 20,000 fish while licking his wounds.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 30, 2006 11:14:35 GMT -6
I don't think a) Reno was a lousy leader...excited, yes, but not lousy. b) and c)--especially c) are more like it. If he'd have kept his men in the woods most likely they would have met the same fate as Custer--it might have taken a little longer to wipe out both Custer and him, but wipe them out they would have done. The Indians would not have allowed a sizable band of soldiers to be in that proximity of their village for any length of time; so they would have kept at it with a lot more forcefulness than they did on the hill top. Reno was already quite beset by the Indians when he and his ran for it--they could not hold the parimeter. Benteen would NOT have joined Reno in the valley in any scenario. He was under orders--written orders--to hurry along to Custer and bring up the packs, so he would have stayed on the ridge. There is no way at all he could have brought the packs to Custer in time--period. And even if he had merely waved at Reno as he passed on the ridge and kept riding to Custer, he still would/could not have reached Custer in time to do much good against the numbers they were facing. Custer was already heavily engaged when Benteen reached Reno--it took D troop a half hour to get to Wier Point--figure another half hour to get past Medicine Tail Coulee...and still more time to reach Calhoun ridge--this time under heavy fire. He would have only found dead and dying there--even if he got that far. No, I like Elizebeth's second scenerio best. Once Custer rode down off Nye-Cartwright ridge that would have to be the only best scenario. Not a good situation.
Jas.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 30, 2006 11:53:15 GMT -6
Another consideration is the location of the village. It was set up in a excellent defensive position. There was high, rough ground on one side, then a river to cross. On the other side was a wide-open plain with an excellent field of view.
The layout of the village gave time for the Indians to counter any charge from the bluffs and river which Reno had to do. In addition there was open ground for an extensive area before the village began. The warriors had ample time to gather in his front to either cover for the non-coms or challenge Reno. The warriors did their job and once Reno saw he could not advance without facing more warriors than anticipated he stopped his charge.
Meanwhile Custer was heading north on high ground but had to find a proper place to descend . . . and again there was a river to cross.
Give credit to the Indians for setting up a village that offered them a defenseable position.
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Post by mcaryf on Apr 3, 2006 0:05:28 GMT -6
The possible fate of Terry's column is an interesting area. I have seen in some Indian accounts that the Sioux did not like to fight infantry and hence moved away as Terry approached. Is this "fear of infantry" a generally acknowledged fact? I can understand that one incentive to fight is missing, namely the opportunity to capture good horses, and the infantry were not so much of a threat in terms of catching up with the non-combatants.
Regards
Mike
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Post by El Crab on Apr 3, 2006 2:00:47 GMT -6
The possible fate of Terry's column is an interesting area. I have seen in some Indian accounts that the Sioux did not like to fight infantry and hence moved away as Terry approached. Is this "fear of infantry" a generally acknowledged fact? I can understand that one incentive to fight is missing, namely the opportunity to capture good horses, and the infantry were not so much of a threat in terms of catching up with the non-combatants. Regards Mike I think, like so many other factors, it depends on who you asked. Some wanted to fight Terry, some didn't. Some Indians said they didn't like fighting the walking soldiers, others never said that was the reason.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Apr 3, 2006 9:03:47 GMT -6
I think the fear was real because the walking soldiers could not run away...they would stand and fight it out (had to)--with rifles that far outranged the Indian guns. They may have come on slow...but they came on relentlessly. Indians are best at quick cut and run tactics--masters of that in fact. Infantry are direct assault troops. They just plug away. They can't even be overrun by horseback because a good trained infantry unit can beat cavalry every time (need steady nerves and good training though).
Jas.
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