Herendeen

[elisabeth]

Just wondering ... Was Herendeen, strictly speaking, totally under Custer's orders -- or was he really under Terry's?

He was with Custer at Terry's behest, on the understanding that he'd be the one to report back after the Tullock's Creek scout. He claims that when he raised the question of reporting, Custer simply ignored him. Did he have to wait for Custer's permission before he could go? Or should his standing orders (direct or implied) from Terry have overridden Custer's lack of response?

He always presents himself as the good guy who did everything right. And Custer gets the blame for not sending him. Is it possible that he could, and should, have gone regardless of Custer -- but grabbed at any excuse to stick around and not miss all the excitement?

[fred]

Elisabeth--

I list Herendeen as a "quartermaster employee," implying that he worked for & was paid by the military (as opposed to an unpaid civilian like Mark Kellogg). As such, he was directly responsible to Custer once he had left Terry's purview. I know of no orders, written or otherwise, that would have limited Custer's control over the man. Consequently, Herendeen would have had to obey Custer's commands or else risk being fired & possibly never being re-hired by the military. If I'm not mistaken, these scouts were fairly highly paid & their terms of "enlistment" were usually by the month.

As for Herendeen's veracity, unlike Fred Gerard, I have never read a bad word about the man & I would probably rate his testimony at an "A" level, as opposed to maybe a "D" or worse for Gerard (a scale of A-E or 1-5).

Best wishes,
Fred.

[El Crab]

I know one thing: Herendeen, while he never seems to have mentioned it, likely wasn't too happy about not being sent to through the Tullock's Creek watershed and onto Terry/Gibbon. He was going to get 200 bucks for it. A princely sum for a day's work, really.

Some of those scouts were paid rather handsomely. Bouyer was making something like 10 dollars a day. What was Custer's pay? Somewhere around 60 a month?

[El Crab]

elisabeth said:

Is it possible that he could, and should, have gone regardless of Custer -- but grabbed at any excuse to stick around and not miss all the excitement?

He wanted to go. He wanted his 200 dollars. But Custer had to send him.

[shan]

Fred,
I couldn't agree more with you about Herendeen. His evidence as to the sound of Custers firing gives us a hint, no wait, far more than a hint, as to the duration of Custers part of the battle. Herendeen, and the men down on the valley floor had far more need to be aware of every little sight and sound around them. They were still in mortal danger, whereas the men up on the bluffs, not under any direct threat for the moment, could relax and indulge in swapping tales about their awful experiences to anyone who cared to listen. Consequently, they may not have been paying as much attention to what was happening to the North, has the likes of Herendeen and the others below. There is another angle to this, which is, many of those trapped in the timber had assumed that Custer would be crossing further upstream, and then sweeping down towards Renos line of attack, they were listening hard because they thought that Custer would be coming to their rescue. Final point. Why do those that want to stretch the battles length out to two or even more hours, seemingly insist in ignoring the likes of Herendeen who was there?
Shan

[fred]

Shan--

You bring up an extremely good point about Herendeen & the men left behind in the timber paying closer attention to the sights & noises around them & farther downstream. I hadn't given that much thought, but it's something I'm going to have to factor into my thinking.

I am, however, one of those people who thinks the entire battle may have taken even longer than most others think. I believe Custer & his command were finally destroyed at some time after 6pm, but I think the whole sequence leading up to that may[/b] have begun earlier than the traditional noon-divide-crossing scenario. There is some pretty good evidence that the actual fighting began around or slightly before noon. I've collected statements from as many as 32 participants. Of that number, only 7[/b] say the shooting began after 1pm. One of them-- Dr. Porter-- said it was around 1:30pm & even Reno claimed 2pm. Gall said before 2pm (which could mean anything!). Of all the soldiers involved, only LT Wallace claimed that it was after 2:30pm. Even Curley-- again, someone whose words must be taken w/ a grain of salt-- said the Custer fighting began around 2:30-3pm (it's generally accepted that the small engagement at MT Ford was the beginning of the "Custer fight").

Honestly, I like Indian testimony & w/ a few exceptions, I generally take it as being a bit more reliable (when properly interpreted) than the soldiers' testimony. To be perfectly candid, it's a lot easier to accurately remember events when you're on the side of the big battalions than it is when you're running for dear life.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[shatonska]

fred
maybe an hour gap but Gray's timeline from sunrise to the battle can hardly be dismissed , distance and pace from the divide to the battleflield are not hypotetical , there is a distance to ride and a pace not to kill horses , watherig and alts for orders

the herenden issue
from the bottom where he was he could only listen to the action over mt ford , volleys on luce nye ridges then scattering shots while companies were retreating ( or moving) on battle ridge
fight on battle ridge was to far to be heard from taht position , even from reno hill a much higher point

[fred]

Shatonska--

I don't dismiss Gray's timeline at all. As a matter of fact, Gray's is the basis that guides all my thinking about the timing of the battle. My only point is that it may need to be modified-- stretched a little-- to fit other circumstances. Gray-- like all of us-- probably had his own little favorites, dismissing too much other testimony as being wrong or irrelevant or tainted.

As for the firing, I'm not sure you are correct about, when in the timber, not being able to hear firing from the higher ridges. Woods do muffle sound, but the firing from Ford B was not very heavy & could very easily been drowned out by the local battle noises, whereas volley firing from a greater distance may have been more easily heard. I don't rightly know. Besides, a group of guys left behind in the woods, surrounded by a horde of howling, real bent outta shape Indians, would have a lot more to think about than listening for the pop-pop of a few rifles farther downstream, unless of course, the battle had already passed them by. Volley firing might have caught their attention. So again... you know what?... it's all a matter of timing. Timing is the biggest issue in solving so much of the riddle.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[shatonska]

fred said:

Shatonska--

I don't dismiss Gray's timeline at all. As a matter of fact, Gray's is the basis that guides all my thinking about the timing of the battle. My only point is that it may need to be modified-- stretched a little-- to fit other circumstances. Gray-- like all of us-- probably had his own little favorites, dismissing too much other testimony as being wrong or irrelevant or tainted.

As for the firing, I'm not sure you are correct about, when in the timber, not being able to hear firing from the higher ridges. Woods do muffle sound, but the firing from Ford B was not very heavy & could very easily been drowned out by the local battle noises, whereas volley firing from a greater distance may have been more easily heard. I don't rightly know. Besides, a group of guys left behind in the woods, surrounded by a horde of howling, real bent outta shape Indians, would have a lot more to think about than listening for the pop-pop of a few rifles farther downstream, unless of course, the battle had already passed them by. Volley firing might have caught their attention. So again... you know what?... it's all a matter of timing. Timing is the biggest issue in solving so much of the riddle.

Best wishes,
Fred.

surely Gray gave more attentions to accounts that fitted better with his ideas but his interpolations are the best i've found so far

the question is :were there volleys on luce nye ridges ?
cases found tell us yes
if yes Herenden heard these volleys not the volleys on battle ridge, too far to be heard

[fred]

Shatonska--

I totally agree w/ your last post.

Fred.

[shatonska]

fred said:

Shatonska--

I totally agree w/ your last post.

Fred.

plus
volleys were heard as soon as the soldiers were on reno hill , volleys were heard few moments after the warriors had left the valley , i think that at that time Custer was on ridges over mt ford , there the volleys then the move on battle ridge with the scattering fire of the retreat heard from Herenden , then it was too far distance to hear something , i think from Weir survivors saw actions on cahloun hill but battle was still going on ,
here is a possible clue
warriors who fought on lsh or ssl didn't move toward reno immediately because in the accounts we have they all tell us about what was going on on that ground , finishing wounded and so on , companies on Weir were "repulsed" by warriors in reserve or warririors who were luting on cahloun hill , wearing soldier clothes

[fred]

Shatonska--

Agreed!

Fred.

[shan]

Fred,
You and I are just going to have to disagree about the duration of Custers battle, as, like many another writer or thinker on the subject, I suspect we both tend to be drawn to, and indeed refer to, those bits of evidence which best props up our own slightly shaky theories. Sorry Fred, maybe I shouldn't speak for you there.
But, given that is my post, I can't resist bringing in Herendeen as one of my principle white witnesses, able backed by the bulk of Indian testimony, yes there were a few that talked about a longer fight, but the majority describe a surprisingly short battle.
Shatonska,

I'm sorry I can't agree with you about the volleys Herendeen heard coming from Luce ridge. According to Grey, { lets just use him for now, don't all these various differences about timing just drive you mad?} DeRudio apart, Custer was last seen on the Bluffs around 3.20--3.25. I think we can all agree that Martini left Custer around 3.30-3.35 otherwise, he would have seen Reno leaving the timber. All of which means part of Custers command was up on Luce Ridge sometime around 3.40
This would mean that Custer Dilly Dallied around on that ridge for the beat part of 45 mins before that volley firing was heard at 4.25. Custer was 10 years older than the madcap dash in and give it to cavalry commander of the Civil war. We all slow up as we get older, and we all like to take a bit longer before making a decision or coming to a conclusion, nontheless I can't believe he stayed there that long. No that firing came from Nye Cartwright.
Final point. Firing refuge found on Luce, doesn't nessacarily mean it came from volley firing. I'm sure that the command on Luce did some firing, but I think it was masked to some extent by that firing and general uproar still going on down on the valley floor.
Shan

[shatonska]

shan said:

No that firing came from Nye Cartwright.
Final point. Firing refuge found on Luce, doesn't nessacarily mean it came from volley firing. I'm sure that the command on Luce did some firing, but I think it was masked to some extent by that firing and general uproar still going on down on the valley floor.
Shan

the point is that herenden heard fire for an hour and this fire ,volleys at first then scattering fire , came from the ridges over mt ford and not from battle ridge , i said luce and nye meaning that area in contrast with the battle ridge area , if you say fire came from nye i agree
this is only possible if custer waited for benteen arrival and sent 2 companies to check and hold ford area preparing the attack

if we could be sure on this fact it would be the key in the Custer's side of the battle because if herenden from that bottom could not listen to fire on battle ridge it means that the hour of battle he heard was in ford and ridges over the ford area ( as soldiers on reno hill testified )
if we give at least an hour to the battle on battle ridge it means that what was seen from the weir advance was only the end of the fight in cahloun and keogh area and soldiers accounts were lies tring to hide that they retreated and could not help custer , better say that custer and his men were all dead already

[elisabeth]

Absolutely!! At least, that's the conclusion I've come to. They had something pretty big to cover up, and I think that's what it is ...

Note Benteen's testimony at the RCOI, when he gets so carried away at one point that he tries to claim they were "all dead" by the time he got to Reno! And then he either realises the ridiculousness of what he's said, or sees the blank disbelief on the faces of the court, and rapidly backtracks. The duration of the battle is the "smoking gun" -- I'm sure you're right about that!